Dutchie in NC

... received a speeding ticket in Charlotte, NC this AM for driving 88 in a 65 MPH zone. Radar detector did not go off and when I asked the officer how he clocked me he said that he got me via some 'time/distance measurement' and he used a term I do not remember anymore.

Given the speed he charged me with this means an automatic court appearance in Mecklenburg County, so need some help here..

- Anybody have experience with Charlotte speeding ticks?
- Should I get a lawyer... any references?
- Any other advice?

Thanks!

Eric - Plug Guy

Not automatic, unless you want to go waste your time and get charged. You will need the services of the #1 attorney in Charlotte.

If it wasn't a radar ticket, and he used old technology Vascar (time/distance), you will likely walk on this one. R or MR noted on the pink form he handed you is Radar or Moving Radar. Without it, he has less chance (my opinion) of nailing you on this one. Sounds like another case of jealous cop.

I've emailed you the information you need. Call him Monday first thing, and follow my instructions.

Good luck.

Wellardmac

Eric,
We have vascar here in PA, can you also pass along the info that you have to me? - I'd be interested in learning the defects. I'd assumed that it was less accurate, but I didn't realize it was easier to get out of the ticket.

I'd prefer to have radar (local police here in PA are not allowed to use radar), because at least you can get some warning that they're there.

Dutchie in NC

Eric,

Thanks for info and was good talking to you. I will keep you posted.

It was indeed VASCAR that the officer called it... have been surfing online for a bit and am quite surprised about this method... read this!

http://travel.3dresearch.com/prep1.html

In Allegheny County, Pennsylvania one can appeal the District Justice's order to the Common Pleas Court (County Court). This really isn't an appeal, this is trial de novo (new trial) where the people of the state are represented by a prosecutor. This is also a court of record; a transcriptionist will record everything the participants of the trial say. The Common Pleas Court is certainly "prime time justice" compared to the District Court.
Those charged with speeding will only get a censored version of this "prime time justice": Pennsylvania law does not allow these defendants to plead their case to the jury of their peers. Speeders must do with a Judge.

Our man prepared for his trial by researching literature about VASCAR and Pennsylvania law about speed enforcement.

VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer and Recorder) is really a stopwatch coupled with a calculator. Once a distance is entered, the operator pushes a button to start then stop the stopwatch. VASCAR displays the speed calculated from the distance entered and the time measured.

Thus, a VASCAR measurement depends on human input. Therefore, in order to make a VASCAR measurement as accurate as possible, the observer's/operator's reaction time must be as short as possible. (Reaction time is defined as "the time interval between an input signal (physiological) or a stimulus (psychophysiological) and the response elicited by the signal.)

What is considered "normal" human reaction time? First, let's take a look at the best: Drag racers. Average reaction time of (Top Fuel) drag racers at the 1997 U.S. Nationals was 0.124 ± 0.082 second. Imagine that our cop running VASCAR is a super cop, with drag racer like reaction times: What kind of error is introduced into the VASCAR speed measurement by a reaction time of 0.124 second? With the numbers testified to by our cop:

Distance
_________________ = Measured Speed

Real time ± Error


100
____________ = 60.096 feet/second (40.97 mph)

1.54 + 0.124


or


100
____________ = 70.621 feet/second (48.15 mph)

1.54 - 0.124

depending on whether the cop was 0.124 second too quick or too late.

The calculation above takes into consideration only one opportunity for error. However, the cop must not only start the VASCAR's stopwatch, but he also must stop it. Thus, he can introduce the error twice:

100
____________ = 55.928 feet/second (38.13 mph)

1.54 + 0.248


or


100
____________ = 77.399 feet/second (52.77 mph)

1.54 - 0.248

Looks like we are getting some error margin here: it is almost 15 mph. But wait a minute: the cop alleged that he clocked our man 66 mph (96.8 feet/second). If true, the elapsed time over 100 feet distance was 1.033 second. The error in speed reading introduced by human reaction time becomes even more severe:

100
_____________ = 78.064 feet/second (53.225 mph)

1.033 + 0.248


or


100
_____________ = 127.388 feet/second (86.855 mph)

1.033 - 0.248

WOW! An error margin of more than 33 mph! And remember, we assumed that the super cop in this example has reaction times similar to a drag racer!

Imagine if the cop is only human: Average adults show reaction times around 0.3 second -- it's not even worthwile to do the calculation. Obviously, we can no longer talk about accuracy and VASCAR in the same sentence. One can conclude that using VASCAR over a 100-foot distance cannot yield any accurate speed reading for the speeds alleged in our man's case. We come to this conclusion even before considering other sources of error, such as visual distortion introduced by the parallax effect.

And what about the law? This is what you find in § 3368 of Title 75 of the Pennsylvania Code:

(4) No person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through
the use of devices authorized by paragraphs (2) and (3) unless the
speed recorded is six or more miles per hour in excess of the legal
speed limit. Furthermore, no person may be convicted upon
evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (3)
in an area where the legal speed limit is less than 55
miles per hour if the speed recorded is less than ten miles per hour
in excess of the legal speed limit. This paragraph shall not apply
to evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by
paragraph (3) within a school zone.

VASCAR is a device authorized by paragraph (3). Looks like even Pennsylvania lawmakers acknowledge that VASCAR is not a precise method for measuring speed.

Our man was pleased to find the section in red of the above paragraph: All he had to do to convince the judge that 100 feet in 1.54 second is not 66 mph but about 44 mph, with no error. The judge should dismiss the case. But will the judge listen? Although the math "problem" here is rather trivial, perhaps the judge will be more likely believe someone with a degree in math. Thus, our man enlisted the help of his friend, who is a CMU graduate with a degree in mathematics

Wellardmac

Wow! So, even though the local police here in PA are using VASCAR for local roads (35, 45, 50mph), they are not legally authorized to do so?!?!? I'm amazed. We have lines painted all over the roads for this junk and the method is worthless. The good news is that I guess it can be fought and if we get in front of a reasonable judge, then the ticket can be struct down.

I'm still in shock. No wonder they keep putting an authorization for radar on the ballet (and having it struct down).

That is cool! I'd always figured it was inaccurate, but that there must be some authorization, or method for them making the results valid, I guess I was wrong.

Thanks!

AsianImage

I was going to offer my "expertise" here..but you got it!

Miles per hour
and
Distance per second

That is my pretty much fool proof method to fight tickets...especially Radar. The only way you are pretty much going to lose is when a cop PACES you...you cannot win those. But the visual BS one...and Radar/Laser using the formula you have you will win. All you have to do is discredit the copper..show some sort of error margin..and they will let you go.

unless...the judge is in a bad mood and then you are screwed. Good luck! and keep those formulas in your hat! That is my secret! hahahahaa!

Wellardmac

So radar can be challenged using the same logic? My understanding was that argument typically got thrown out of court if used. What am I missing here?

jugger911

The only downfall to this; police officers have to go through a school and get "certified", so they can have "knowledge" enough to say that they did an accurate assessment of your speed. Everything must go in your favor to get completely out of it. If get away with only court-cost, I'd say you did good. Good luck!

Wellardmac

Yeah, I'd be more comfortable challenging VASCAR than radar. Now that I have the information above I'm armed and ready if I get a ticket using that dumb system.

washington dc porsche

In a few days you will receive a letter from at least one law office in NC, give them a call to see what his cost will be. If it's cheaper for you to be present in court then fight it yourself.

washington dc porsche

Signs of Vascar are a painted line going horizontally across the roadway or a red cone on the side of the road seemingly for no reason. The most obvious sign is the police car on a straight stretch of road less than a quarter of a mile away with a patrolman looking at you with binoculars and 1-3 others to chase or flag you down.

DarylJ

Nope...they're legal, but you have to be shown as being at least 6 over to be written.

One of the fine officers of Buckingham, a department you are surely familiar with if you're in Doylestown, had a VASCAR ticket thrown out a couple years back because the case was made that he was too.....ahem...fat....to have a proper reaction time. Medical evidence was presented that overweight individuals lose some of their reaction time, etc, etc.

And yes, one can still get out of a pacing ticket. If the car's spedo had not been tested/calibrated in the last (forget....30 or so days) it can't be used.

fast1

In MD it's not that tough to get out of a speeding ticket if your driving record has been clean for the past three years. The judge will generally give the offender PBJ, Probation before Judgement. So as long as you aren't charged with another moving volation durong the probation period, the speeding charge is removed form your record. If you are offered PBJ, all you need do is to pay the court costs and drive carefully for at least six months. The probation period varies by jurisdiction.

AsianImage

Radar is the easiest to fight...I am telling you..there are so many variables in radar that all you need to do is show doubt..and margin of error.

using the formula above you can win radar. lets say a cop says he catches you on the freeway/expressway going 75 in a 55 using his radar.

So depending on time of day..you have traffic considerations. there are multiple targets on the freeway..bouncing back different signals. Where was he parked? or was he driving? Make him state exactly where he saw you. So the cop says I saw him at callbox 123 and I radared him and pulled him over. So then you confirm where you got pulled over. He hits the lights and you pull over...300-500 feet away from where he saw you. (going back and taking pictures and using a thomas guide to show ACTUAL DISTANCE is crucial)

Using the above speed = distance traveled..you can argue...he had no time to see you, pick up his radar, point at you...get the correct reading, put the gun down, turn on his lights and pull you over. How long does that take? 1 min? 3 mins?

I dont have the math but if you were indeed travelling 75mph that means you would be traveling X feet per second...so depending on what the cop says on the stand, "oh it took me 30 sec to a minute to do all of that"...well...you just won. 30 secs equals how many feet if you were traveling at 75mph? I guarantee the math will be MUCH FARTHER than where he ended up pulling you over...congrats you just won...

I totally simplified the above...but that is how I won my case. If anyone watns some specific help feel free to PM me and I will help ya out! The cop after the case came over and actually shook my hand and he said.."good job, you did your homework." I was like you jerk!

Also if you are fighting this yourself...do not forget your right to DISCOVERY! Send a registered letter to the clerks office. They have to send you the back of the officer's ticket, where he writes his notes and they have to send you his radar certification and model number and the last time he was certified. You as the defendant have the right to all this info. So demand it in writing...if the court does not reply when it is your court date..show the judge the registered letter and you never got a reply he has to throw it out! Bam you win!

Wellardmac

Thanks Daryl - so some wiggle room, but not a lot. I'm not a big fan of VASCAR - it seems to wide open for error that I'm amazed that it's still used... good to know the ways to get out of a ticket if it's a close call.

I was taking my car out for a final fling today before detailing it and hibernating it. I jumped onto the Turnpike and was greeted at the end of the merge with a state trooper hiding behind a bridge. Thankfully the radar detector and the wall of brake lights tipped me off before I accelerated past 75.... my spoiler was up, but I managed to brake down to 61 before I got close to him.