Rob in WA

I got into a little discussion in the Cayenne section w/ a 993 owner who was ripping on 996s, Cayennes, and Boxsters. We all know that the about the difference between the M96 oil sump and other 911s, air cooled, 996TTs, and GTs. These cars have a sump which is based on the 964 case. This dry sump oil system allows the engine to be mounted lower in the car, which contributes to a lower center of gravity. The M96 is considered to be a "semi" dry-sump, a hybrid of the two styles with the "tank" incorporated with the engine and not mounted to the chassis with external rubber oil lines like the earlier 911s. This design not only yields a manufacturing efficiency, it also eliminates another source of oil leakage which plagued earlier 911s.

He had this to say about the M96 oil sump:

"The semi-dry sump of the 996 engine, at least in its early form, had some oil starvation problems while undergoing sustained cornering on the track. It simply did not work as well in track conditions as the true dry-sump system that the air-cooled engines utilized. Porsche warned owners of these cars to avoid sustained high-G situations -- track days. Porsche developed a modification that could be installed to alleviate this failing, but at considerable cost to the owner (well over $1,000, if memory serves), and advised owners to avoid the track without this mod. "

I've never heard of 996 owners being warned not to track w/out this mod, have you?

SundayDriver

The warning is 'correct' but not the details. The stock 996 motor can experience oil startvation issues under high G loadings. This bascially means that you should not run slicks on these cars without the oil system mods. Tracking these cars on street tires or DOT R tires (like Hoosiers) is OK according to the mechanics I have talked to. Just do not take the jump to real racing slicks.

Palting

It sounds like you came across a 993 owner who likes to improve the value of his 993 by putting down 996's and all other things Porsche.

No, I have not been discouraged from tracking my 996. And I have been aggressively tracking the car, with blessings from my local dealer. The oil starvation mentioned "can" occur with sustained G's that can only be achieved with racing slicks on a long looping carousel. In other words, it can only occur if you are competitively tracking your car and have it race modified. If you race modify a 996, it will have to include the additional pick up system. If you modify it short of a race prep, I don't believe you will ever "starve" the engine in it's stock form.

993's and 996's are excellent cars. Not to make this a 993 vs 996 thread, but does that "knowledgeable" 993 owner you talked to track his car? If he doesn't, and he came across as abnoxious to you, then I'd call him a poseour. If this was an otherwise amicable exchange, I'd just say the 993 is a "nice" car, but now a dinosour, heh-heh .

Karl S

I believe the official warning was for cars that sustain cornering forces of more than 1 g, and there was an assumption that 1g can only be exceeded on racing slicks. While this may be true if the rest of the suspension is stock, I believe that there are 996s with modified suspensions that can exceed 1g even on Hoosiers or other DOT R tires. I know Chris Cervelli recommends the oil sump mod for anyone thinking about Club Racing a 996 in B or C stock, and these cars run on DOT tires.

The issues isn't really dry sump or wet sump, the issue with the 996 is how many oil return pumps they use and where they are located. The "oiling" mod from PMNA for the 996 doesn't make the car a full dry sump system, it merely adds another scavage pump and oil return to one of the heads. If Porsche had included this in the design of the M96 in the first place (maybe they do on the 3.6L engine, does anyone know?), there would be no issue of dry sump versus hybrid.

Karl

996FLT6

If I was really going to do compettitive racing I wouldn't hesitate to get the GT3 in a heartbeat but since I'm not, DE's is my thing and since I'm not doing enduros and only running the car 20-30 minutes at a time oil starvation is a moot point. Never had starvation issues with DE's. Regards. Mike

John Murray

My 99 996 has had no problems. I run street tires and the oil stays where it needs to be. Slicks would be a different story.

John H

My dealer said the problems have been overblown. If you don't mod the suspension and run race slicks, you should be fine. Every story I have heard has started "This guy I know, knew this guy that..."

Greg Fishman

John,
You are right. This guy I know that had a 99 C2 sold it after experiencing some really low oil pressure readings during hard cornering on the track. His was the same pretty red that your car is. Looks great.

KLZ

Porsches are born on the track, how could you keep them away from the tracks??? Why bother buying a Porsche if you don't track them?!?!?!?! <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

adsc4s

Porsche's 911 venture away from air cooled has been a learning experience. The 996 motor was not built for the track. Even with the start of production of the 996, Porsche continued to use an air cooled motor for its race vehicles.

996FLT6

MAN-this is another 996-993 debate. Please close this topic-I'm getting pissed. Regards. Mike

Chris Cervelli

All comparisons to the 993 and previous 911 engines are pretty much irrelevant. The 996 engine is clearly superior in some ways, and clearly inferior in others.

Here is what I have learned in running my 996 for about 10000 track miles now. No DE events, all serious racing.

The stock oil system is not even close to good enough. I recommend installing the oil kit as soon as R compound tires go on. If the kit is not installed, it is only a matter of time.

I have found that the oil kit cures 99.9% of that problem. But there are other problems:

The oil cooling system is not sufficient. Oil temp is always above 250F

The water cooling system is barely sufficient if you use the center radiator. Slow tracks and hot days are a problem.

The engine loses a great deal of power once the temperatures get high.

None of these things are likely to be an issue in DE use.

Speedraser

Rob W,
It seems that nerve is still struck...

All,
I am the 993 owner to whom Rob W referred. Please Rob, do not mischaracterize what I posted. I was not "ripping" on 996s, Cayennes or Boxsters (in fact, you "ripped" on the 993). I simply responded to the thread topic on the Cayenne board with a combination of facts and opinions (and opinions should never be confused with facts).

To briefly summarize: 1) I know the 996 is a bit quicker and faster than the 993; 2) the 996 engine (non-GT3, Turbo, or GT2) is not as track-worthy as the air-cooled 911 engines; 3) build quality of the 996, Boxster and Cayenne is not up to the standards of the earlier cars.

I think there is little debate about those issues. I don't think the above should offend anyone. It apparently offended Rob W., who by his own admission covered the interior of his own car in full leather and wood in order to hide the plastic.

Palting,
Rest assured, I did not nor would I attempt to "improve the value of" my 993 "by putting down 996s and all other things Porsche." I like virtually everything Porsche has ever made, although, like most of us, I have some preferences. For the record, yes, I track my car, though I do not think that one is necessarily a poseur if one does not do track events.

996s and 993s are among the greatest cars on the planet. They are different cars, however, and they each have advantages and disadvantages relative to the other -- that's why some of us own 993s and some own 996s (and a few own both).

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

adsc4s

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 996FLT6:
<strong>MAN-this is another 996-993 debate. Please close this topic-I'm getting pissed. Regards. Mike</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Certainly not a 996-993 debate. However, as mentioned earlier, the air cooled and water cooled motors both have advantages and disadvantages. As you say you track your car frequently, you would know these difference better than most.

Incidentally, I have not tracked my car yet but I am certainly not a poser.

Bill - Chicago

Don't assume you car is not having oiling problems at the track. You can't tell this is happening by just looking at a the oil gage. The lack of oil will cause excessive wear on you engine, until it gives way. This does not happen in just one long turn, but over time. Up to that point it may perform normally. Mine popped going down a straight, but it was shot from lack of oil.

I totally agree with what Chris is saying above. If you have a modified your car through R compound tires and suspension work. You should have the oil kit. At least on earlier 996. This may have been fixed the 3.6 engines.

I raced a 996 in C stock for two years and through the towel in on it. I now have a 993RS that I race.

Just for the record I like the 996 better than the 993 I had before for everyday use.