Porsche reliability and problem reporting
02-09-2006, 09:51 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Porsche reliability and problem reporting
With all the frustrations that have been expressed on both sides of engine and RMS reliability, I thought it was worthwhile to express my point of view on the matter. The posts on all sorts of problems make for great reads and I definitely look forward to seeing what's up with the Rennlist 'gang' every day. You've all become quasi-clubhouse buddies to me. However, some users seem to be getting more and more offended by what people are writing, regardless of their point of view on RMS failure, engine reliability and what not. Frankly, I'm all for reading every sort of opinion because it makes for an even more entertaining read. For some of you, it's not that I don't believe you (ahem...Bob 
). Nor that I don't appreciate the input. Nor that all of us aren't concerned with RMS failures. Nor that all of us aren't a bit surprised by the numerous 'complaints' of engines that have to be replaced. Are you ALL getting the idea? I get it. I think that WE all get it. We look out for it and pay attention to our engines to ensure that we take the appropriate and protective measures. Perhaps, as a community of Porsche drivers, we are all looking out for each other so that others don't suffer our travails.
But, it becomes disconcerting when no new information is revealed and the problem is just reiterated ad infinitum and ad nauseum. Joe's C4 Cab has provided an appreciated log of his travails for all to read. He updates us with status and of course voices his displeasure with the whole incident. Indeed, who wants to have engine problems with a car that costs this much? Bob, however, seems intent on rubbing these issues in our faces at almost every post. Again, there's nothing with Bob doing this, but it's understandable that other users on the forum get irritated. It's human nature to get tired of hearing the 'negative' person all the time.
Frankly, I really like what Joe did: he organized a web site and will begin a campaign to accurately account for people that have had problems. It's constructive and it will help all of us, and EVEN Porsche, to understand the nature and size of these 'problems'. Hopefully, if a consistent problem does exist as a result of a manufacturing defect, Porsche will find a way to make good with a proper solution for all.
However, it's unacceptable to berate a company with circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. If I flip a quarter 10 times and it's heads each time, the next time I flip it still has only a 50% chance of being heads (assuming of course that the quarter is not flawed). Accordingly, citing 84 people (as Bob did) out of 200,000 996 owners is crazy. We can try to massage the statistics anyway we want to suit our purposes but it doesn't validate anyone's hypothesis (that 996 cars are or are not bulletproof). It is simply a count of people who have come to online forums to seek assistance or to complain.
That's all we can do with this information is simply take it under advisement. No more, no less. But harping on it all day long is NOT constructive. Solutions to the problem are constructive. How to get a new engine is constructive. How to determine the real source of the problem is constructive. Berating fellow users for not accepting Bob's problems as their own is NOT constructive. 996s have been in my family for a cumulative age of 16 years. We have nary had a problem. Many others have this similar experience. Is our 'evidence' to be ignored just because of your own unfortunate experience?
In the end, we all have the ability to vote with our wallets. Porsche will react accordingly if sales decline. Apparently, though, the votes are in, Porsche is the most profitable it has ever been and is by far the most profitable auto manufacturer in the world. These are the facts, regardless of RMS and engine failures. For those of you that have had problems, it's more than appreciated that you report your experiences, but DO JUST that. Don't make absurd extrapolations that actually diminish your argument. Stick to your own facts and everyone will benefit. Make outlandish claims and we all just wander adrift with a ton of useful and confusing facts.
In other words, just the facts, please. Leave the interpretations to the professionals. We'll just consider your advice and be wary of your own experiences as we drive our cars down the road should a similar event ever occur.
Thanks for the read.
). Nor that I don't appreciate the input. Nor that all of us aren't concerned with RMS failures. Nor that all of us aren't a bit surprised by the numerous 'complaints' of engines that have to be replaced. Are you ALL getting the idea? I get it. I think that WE all get it. We look out for it and pay attention to our engines to ensure that we take the appropriate and protective measures. Perhaps, as a community of Porsche drivers, we are all looking out for each other so that others don't suffer our travails.But, it becomes disconcerting when no new information is revealed and the problem is just reiterated ad infinitum and ad nauseum. Joe's C4 Cab has provided an appreciated log of his travails for all to read. He updates us with status and of course voices his displeasure with the whole incident. Indeed, who wants to have engine problems with a car that costs this much? Bob, however, seems intent on rubbing these issues in our faces at almost every post. Again, there's nothing with Bob doing this, but it's understandable that other users on the forum get irritated. It's human nature to get tired of hearing the 'negative' person all the time.
Frankly, I really like what Joe did: he organized a web site and will begin a campaign to accurately account for people that have had problems. It's constructive and it will help all of us, and EVEN Porsche, to understand the nature and size of these 'problems'. Hopefully, if a consistent problem does exist as a result of a manufacturing defect, Porsche will find a way to make good with a proper solution for all.
However, it's unacceptable to berate a company with circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. If I flip a quarter 10 times and it's heads each time, the next time I flip it still has only a 50% chance of being heads (assuming of course that the quarter is not flawed). Accordingly, citing 84 people (as Bob did) out of 200,000 996 owners is crazy. We can try to massage the statistics anyway we want to suit our purposes but it doesn't validate anyone's hypothesis (that 996 cars are or are not bulletproof). It is simply a count of people who have come to online forums to seek assistance or to complain.
That's all we can do with this information is simply take it under advisement. No more, no less. But harping on it all day long is NOT constructive. Solutions to the problem are constructive. How to get a new engine is constructive. How to determine the real source of the problem is constructive. Berating fellow users for not accepting Bob's problems as their own is NOT constructive. 996s have been in my family for a cumulative age of 16 years. We have nary had a problem. Many others have this similar experience. Is our 'evidence' to be ignored just because of your own unfortunate experience?
In the end, we all have the ability to vote with our wallets. Porsche will react accordingly if sales decline. Apparently, though, the votes are in, Porsche is the most profitable it has ever been and is by far the most profitable auto manufacturer in the world. These are the facts, regardless of RMS and engine failures. For those of you that have had problems, it's more than appreciated that you report your experiences, but DO JUST that. Don't make absurd extrapolations that actually diminish your argument. Stick to your own facts and everyone will benefit. Make outlandish claims and we all just wander adrift with a ton of useful and confusing facts.
In other words, just the facts, please. Leave the interpretations to the professionals. We'll just consider your advice and be wary of your own experiences as we drive our cars down the road should a similar event ever occur.
Thanks for the read.
02-09-2006, 11:23 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Couldn't be said any better Edward!
But to think those individuals that post based on emotion and just have a bad taste in their mouth which you indirectly referred to will never change. It is who they are and that is not something you can change. You can hope for the best or just do like I do......ignore them. I have given up on those people. It has finally gotten old and to the point I don't even enjoy the jarring back and forth in the quasi-debates we would have.
I have noticed their are 5 types of people on those threads:
1. The ones like Bob (et al) that want to reiterate ad nauseum the same crap every single time they get the chance.
2. The ones like me (et al) that enjoy the jarring (healthy and fun) back and forth.
3. The ones like pcar964 (et al) that like to call people "idiots" and the such while sticking up for Bob (or whatever side supports the post).
4. Those that ignore them and just watch the slow train wreck.
5. The ones that we would hope we ALL could be. As you described in your post above.
But to think those individuals that post based on emotion and just have a bad taste in their mouth which you indirectly referred to will never change. It is who they are and that is not something you can change. You can hope for the best or just do like I do......ignore them. I have given up on those people. It has finally gotten old and to the point I don't even enjoy the jarring back and forth in the quasi-debates we would have.
I have noticed their are 5 types of people on those threads:
1. The ones like Bob (et al) that want to reiterate ad nauseum the same crap every single time they get the chance.
2. The ones like me (et al) that enjoy the jarring (healthy and fun) back and forth.
3. The ones like pcar964 (et al) that like to call people "idiots" and the such while sticking up for Bob (or whatever side supports the post).
4. Those that ignore them and just watch the slow train wreck.
5. The ones that we would hope we ALL could be. As you described in your post above.
02-09-2006, 04:33 PM
#7
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Forums should be a place where ALL sides are heard wheher you agree with them or not. It wouldn't be that informative if just the positives were posted. Thats being a little one sided. Good points nyc.
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02-09-2006, 08:49 PM
#10
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Thanks Ed....I'm interested in a 02 C4S and have been reading this forum religiously. The funny thing is I almost considered not getting a Pcar because of all of the negative post on engine failure and RMS problems. Then I just decided that those problems were few compared to the number of 996 sold and there are numerous positive posts. Secondly, I'll just have a PPI and an aftermarket warranty (looking at Warranty Direct) and hope for the best. The Pcar is my dream car and I won't let the negativity kill my dream.
Thanks
Thanks
02-09-2006, 08:53 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Nicely said, but I do not admonish those who need to voice some degree of emotion be it good or bad. That is partially what message boards are for right? To vent and get things off you mind. I don't mind that because I can choose to stop reading any time I want if I do not like what is being said. I understand your point though and it is well taken. Too much negative drivel is not productive nor is is helping any situation.
02-10-2006, 01:18 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Edward - nicely put. I totally agree. The same banter back and forth does not do any good, that's why I have tried to keep my posts constructive and start a new one when things got too far off track. To call somenone an idiot and a moron is not productive, and I think Bob (and anyone else who has an opinion or experience) has a right to express his opinion too. Dell seems to be the most adamant that Bob is wrong for some reason. Maybe there are some personal or historical bad-blood we don't know about?
Hopefully as some time goes by I will be able to get my website up and running and we can constructivley debate whether or not there is a pattern developing in these cars. Like I said, I hope the problems I have had with my 996 are rare and I hope that everyone's car lasts 1MM miles. Just didn't pan out that way for me.
Hopefully as some time goes by I will be able to get my website up and running and we can constructivley debate whether or not there is a pattern developing in these cars. Like I said, I hope the problems I have had with my 996 are rare and I hope that everyone's car lasts 1MM miles. Just didn't pan out that way for me.
02-10-2006, 04:18 AM
#13
I agree on the constant yapping about the same issue....but I love to read other peoples opinions, problems and fixes...so when I am looking for info (good or bad) I have an extensive library to search through. But not all is bad..and P cars are not without flaws.....but then again which car is???
02-10-2006, 08:26 AM
#14
But, it becomes disconcerting when no new information is revealed and the problem is just reiterated ad infinitum and ad nauseum. Joe's C4 Cab has provided an appreciated log of his travails for all to read. He updates us with status and of course voices his displeasure with the whole incident. Indeed, who wants to have engine problems with a car that costs this much? Bob, however, seems intent on rubbing these issues in our faces at almost every post. Again, there's nothing with Bob doing this, but it's understandable that other users on the forum get irritated.
Let's face it, almost all of us buy into the slick marketing hype put out by the auto makers. It's helped the public to form the stereotypes that most of us have developed over the years. One stereotype is that if the car is German made, it will be expensive but bulletproof, and if it's built in America it will be inexpensive but inferior. So I can easily appreciate the anger on the part of owners who paid top dollar for their 996s, only to see them suffer from catastrophic problems.
The anger of course increases when these owners go to Porsche for some help, only to find that they at best offer only token support. Some unsympathetic posters retort that the cars are not covered by warranty, and what do these owners expect from Porsche. My expectation is that a manufacturer would offer substantial relief to these owners, provided that the problem was caused by a design flaw and not because of abuse or lack of maintenance.
Granted that there is a lot of venting taking place, but I certainly can appreciate how these owners must feel, and I for one have a lot of empathy for them.
Let's face it, almost all of us buy into the slick marketing hype put out by the auto makers. It's helped the public to form the stereotypes that most of us have developed over the years. One stereotype is that if the car is German made, it will be expensive but bulletproof, and if it's built in America it will be inexpensive but inferior. So I can easily appreciate the anger on the part of owners who paid top dollar for their 996s, only to see them suffer from catastrophic problems.
The anger of course increases when these owners go to Porsche for some help, only to find that they at best offer only token support. Some unsympathetic posters retort that the cars are not covered by warranty, and what do these owners expect from Porsche. My expectation is that a manufacturer would offer substantial relief to these owners, provided that the problem was caused by a design flaw and not because of abuse or lack of maintenance.
Granted that there is a lot of venting taking place, but I certainly can appreciate how these owners must feel, and I for one have a lot of empathy for them.
