Here is my take on the RMS bull s*&t
03-03-2005, 03:15 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by JimPDX
I look at it this way. If it leaks then you got to fix it and pay the price. I know two shops in the area that can fix a RMS in 4 to 6 hours...
03-03-2005, 09:47 AM
#17
My RMS was replaced at around 20k miles. It just turned 60k miles and it's fine. As a matter of fact I had the smell of oil when the car was hot so I took it in because I thought it might be the RMS again. Instead it was the spark plug tube o-rings on cyclinders 1 and 2 that were the cause.
The car was checked out and found to be leak free.
The car was checked out and found to be leak free.
03-03-2005, 10:39 AM
#18
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My car had it replaced at 7.5k. now has 15k. This was prior to my purchase. I see it the way Robin Williams in the The World According To Garp did when the plane crashed into the house he was looking to buy " I'll take it, it's been pre disasterized"
03-03-2005, 10:44 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
Well I am new to the p-world-infact I havn't taken delivery yet. I knew nothing of the RMS issue until I joined this board. Well--people perceive things differenty and a persons perception is his reallity. This issue does not effect my desire to own a p-car. It has been 25 years I have been dreaming and my car is certified so I will have a warranty but I must say that if I did not have a warranty and my car failed in that way once or twice and I knew this was a design issue from Porsche, I would be sceaming and cursing the Porsche name. And then find out that it has happened to the same car 3 times in one year.....well...I don't see how Porsche could let that happen....German car? A little tempermental?...OK But a piece of &%$# that can't hold a seal?...CMON ALREADY!!!!....just my 2 cents..........Jeff
03-03-2005, 12:37 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
The only 100% way to fix an RMS leak on a 996 is to REPLACE THE ENGINE. The seal itself is not the problem, there is no problem manufacturing the seal or with the seal seating properly (although some have been installed backwards at the factory), the problem is with the engine block. If the problem was only a bad seal and easily fixable then people would not be complaining as much.
03-03-2005, 01:30 PM
#21
I've had a total of 6 RMS leaks (And I even got a tattoo commemorating it!), 2 ISS leaks and a cam cover leak...(not including all the other stuff)...and I STILL WOULDN'T TRADE IT FOR ANYTHING IN THE WORLD!! I LOVE MY PORSCHE!! Okay, I'm done.
Dreams do come true...I'm driving mine.
I owe myself a couple of drops...
03-03-2005, 01:55 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
OK, everyone chill out. Let's put this into perspecive. First of all we "ALL" love this car and that's why we are here. Secondly, any 996/997 or 986 owner who is not covered by warranty has to be in total denial or has bags of throw away cash if he/she believes this isn't a major worry for them.
Things to consider:
* Most RMS failures are fixed once replaced. But once an RMS failure is repaired you have a much higher chance of it reoccuring again.
* Porsche are fully aware of the problem but won;t admit to it. There have been 4 different seals tried and they still fail.
* The problem persists in the 997. This is outrageous.
* All cars even none Porsche cars can suffer an RMS failure but the rate in the 996/986 is more than comfortable. That's why its discussed so often.
* A failed RMS may be a sign of much worse conditions such as engine block misalignement.
* The long term effects of leaving an RMS unfixed are unknown but it may lead to catastrophic failure or clutch/flywheel contamination.
* The RMS should "NEVER", I repeat "NEVER" be replace unless it is leaking. If you remove the RMS and fit another and there is no leak, you may regret it as it may lead to future RMS failures. You broke the seal......I dont mean the RMS either....I mean you ripped the sticker off that says your engine is RMS failure free. Mess with it and you may induce a reocurring RMS problem.
* PCGB have done two surveys. One on the 986 and another on the 996. The 996 results are not fully known yet. The 986 results show overwhelmingly that the RMS "IS" a prolem and the 996 results are showing similar results. Basically 1 in 4 cars will have an RMS fail.
* In the US, it seems there is a policy that if you have 3 RMS failures in warranty or not then Porsche will replace your engine if it has FPSH by the dealer network. This is not always the case but from what I have read mostly the case. In the ROW this is not the case.
* The RMS has affected residual values. Porsche don't seem to care. In some respects, it is to their advantage as it loweres the car value to a market that most can not afford. This gives them a bigger market share as the masses buy them up. Once you own a 911 you are very likely to want another and these new type of Porsche owners are prospective new Porsche buyers once weaned onto the 911 at a knock down price.
* The very reason Posrche won;t admit to the RMS being a problem is because there are so many RMS failed cars out there and they will get sued to pieces. But better still, they are likely to buy into the extended warranty scheme. If these cars were so perfect then who needs the extended warranty?
* It's simply not acceptable for an engine to suffer such a major problem at these relatively low miles. And more so on a £65,000 Porsche. Porsche should just put it right each time without quibble and there would be nobody complaining.
* Someone mentioned that abusing your Porsche may cause the RMS problem. How do you abuse a Porsche? The car is limited to safe revs so how do you abuse it? It is made to go fast and furious and even to be tracked. Is tracking the car abusing it? I don;t think so.
You may be sick of hearing about the RMS problem (as I am) but the fact is it is real, with us, and it may be about to hit your car. If you are in warranty then you don;t give a dam. But if your out of warrnty then you just have to be concerned about this problem.
And for those who don;t already know, I am on my 7th RMS in 15 months and the 7th is leaking!
Things to consider:
* Most RMS failures are fixed once replaced. But once an RMS failure is repaired you have a much higher chance of it reoccuring again.
* Porsche are fully aware of the problem but won;t admit to it. There have been 4 different seals tried and they still fail.
* The problem persists in the 997. This is outrageous.
* All cars even none Porsche cars can suffer an RMS failure but the rate in the 996/986 is more than comfortable. That's why its discussed so often.
* A failed RMS may be a sign of much worse conditions such as engine block misalignement.
* The long term effects of leaving an RMS unfixed are unknown but it may lead to catastrophic failure or clutch/flywheel contamination.
* The RMS should "NEVER", I repeat "NEVER" be replace unless it is leaking. If you remove the RMS and fit another and there is no leak, you may regret it as it may lead to future RMS failures. You broke the seal......I dont mean the RMS either....I mean you ripped the sticker off that says your engine is RMS failure free. Mess with it and you may induce a reocurring RMS problem.
* PCGB have done two surveys. One on the 986 and another on the 996. The 996 results are not fully known yet. The 986 results show overwhelmingly that the RMS "IS" a prolem and the 996 results are showing similar results. Basically 1 in 4 cars will have an RMS fail.
* In the US, it seems there is a policy that if you have 3 RMS failures in warranty or not then Porsche will replace your engine if it has FPSH by the dealer network. This is not always the case but from what I have read mostly the case. In the ROW this is not the case.
* The RMS has affected residual values. Porsche don't seem to care. In some respects, it is to their advantage as it loweres the car value to a market that most can not afford. This gives them a bigger market share as the masses buy them up. Once you own a 911 you are very likely to want another and these new type of Porsche owners are prospective new Porsche buyers once weaned onto the 911 at a knock down price.
* The very reason Posrche won;t admit to the RMS being a problem is because there are so many RMS failed cars out there and they will get sued to pieces. But better still, they are likely to buy into the extended warranty scheme. If these cars were so perfect then who needs the extended warranty?
* It's simply not acceptable for an engine to suffer such a major problem at these relatively low miles. And more so on a £65,000 Porsche. Porsche should just put it right each time without quibble and there would be nobody complaining.
* Someone mentioned that abusing your Porsche may cause the RMS problem. How do you abuse a Porsche? The car is limited to safe revs so how do you abuse it? It is made to go fast and furious and even to be tracked. Is tracking the car abusing it? I don;t think so.
You may be sick of hearing about the RMS problem (as I am) but the fact is it is real, with us, and it may be about to hit your car. If you are in warranty then you don;t give a dam. But if your out of warrnty then you just have to be concerned about this problem.
And for those who don;t already know, I am on my 7th RMS in 15 months and the 7th is leaking!
03-03-2005, 02:04 PM
#23
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Damn Robyn, why didn't you just buy a GT3? I didn't realize you'd gone so far on that car. Looks good though. Have you had a chance to take it to the track since the SC?
Scouser, you've got to be the most unlucky pcar owner ever, I feel your pain.
Chris
Scouser, you've got to be the most unlucky pcar owner ever, I feel your pain.
Chris
03-03-2005, 03:18 PM
#26
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At the risk of sounding like a know-it-all which I am not, I will posit the following. Dunce hat off...
Great car, bad seal/engine design margin. Simple as that. This is a tolerancing stack up problem and is statistical. This occurs at initial design. With all the sophisticated CAE around, I would be very surprised if they didn't know, but rather just took the chance. The life of the seal or more precisely, the mean time it takes for an engine to start leaking from the crank or intermediate fails expectations (OK, I can only surmise this by reading polls and counting messages in various forums so you can ding me for that :-) ). If this were the 100,000 mile RMS problem, it wouldn't be a problem; it would be a wear item like a timing belt. But because to more owner than what seems to be reasonable, myself included, it can be a 3000 mile, 3 times a year problem, I believe these people have a right to bitch all the way to a lawsuit depending *heavily* on how Porsche responds. And this would have to apply to those out of warrantly, because it is nothing more than an inconvenience. You're not going to be caught stranded somewhere w/ a dead engine because of it, or having to cough up $13K for a reman motor.
So to those who are sick of the Porsche bashing, I can only say you have a warranty or too much money. And as far as bashing, at least in my case, I am not bashing Porsche, I am bashing Porsche's decision to allow this to happen. Yes, I am pretty confident they knew. Who knows, maybe there is an ex-Porsche mid-manager hanging by a tree somewhere. They knew there was a risk, just not the magnitude of it in production.
If I knew I had a say 50% chance of having a motor that will have zero problems vs. 3K/3 times a year, I would not hesitate to add the what I would consider the "mandatory" extended warrantly as part of the cost of ownership.
In the end, it is how Porsche responds to those out of warranty to a problem that is their fault. I believe they are taking generally good care of these customers, myself included so far, and this is what is really important. And to the degree that is generally true, the Porsche mark does not deserve bashing.
What perplexes me is the problem has been around for so long. I bet they have a QA step for each and every engine to check for this. Does this mean the engine moves out of spec over time once it leaves the factory? Only they can know.
OK, dunce hat back on...
Dan
Great car, bad seal/engine design margin. Simple as that. This is a tolerancing stack up problem and is statistical. This occurs at initial design. With all the sophisticated CAE around, I would be very surprised if they didn't know, but rather just took the chance. The life of the seal or more precisely, the mean time it takes for an engine to start leaking from the crank or intermediate fails expectations (OK, I can only surmise this by reading polls and counting messages in various forums so you can ding me for that :-) ). If this were the 100,000 mile RMS problem, it wouldn't be a problem; it would be a wear item like a timing belt. But because to more owner than what seems to be reasonable, myself included, it can be a 3000 mile, 3 times a year problem, I believe these people have a right to bitch all the way to a lawsuit depending *heavily* on how Porsche responds. And this would have to apply to those out of warrantly, because it is nothing more than an inconvenience. You're not going to be caught stranded somewhere w/ a dead engine because of it, or having to cough up $13K for a reman motor.
So to those who are sick of the Porsche bashing, I can only say you have a warranty or too much money. And as far as bashing, at least in my case, I am not bashing Porsche, I am bashing Porsche's decision to allow this to happen. Yes, I am pretty confident they knew. Who knows, maybe there is an ex-Porsche mid-manager hanging by a tree somewhere. They knew there was a risk, just not the magnitude of it in production.
If I knew I had a say 50% chance of having a motor that will have zero problems vs. 3K/3 times a year, I would not hesitate to add the what I would consider the "mandatory" extended warrantly as part of the cost of ownership.
In the end, it is how Porsche responds to those out of warranty to a problem that is their fault. I believe they are taking generally good care of these customers, myself included so far, and this is what is really important. And to the degree that is generally true, the Porsche mark does not deserve bashing.
What perplexes me is the problem has been around for so long. I bet they have a QA step for each and every engine to check for this. Does this mean the engine moves out of spec over time once it leaves the factory? Only they can know.
OK, dunce hat back on...
Dan
03-04-2005, 05:14 AM
#28
Technical Guru
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Originally Posted by phaedrus242
I'm curious what your source is for this claim.
03-04-2005, 07:45 AM
#29
Scouser: Although I unsderstand the loyalty that many owners have to Porsche, I believe that you are on target with your observations. The RMS problem has been around for many years and Porsche to the best of my knowledge has never even publicly admitted that there is a problem. Porsche should have conducted a 996 recall a year or two ago. They should have inspected each and every engine for RMS leaks, and replaced defective seals on all cars in and out of warranty. There's no doubt in my mind that in the past, that's exactly what Porsche would have done. Unfortunately the new corporate philosophy at Porsche is to put profits above all else, and hence we have Porsche in denial about RMS.
The result is that 996s appear to be depreciating much faster than any other 911. Granted that I have no evidence other than a few anecdotal experiences to support my view, but at least in my area I have seen a couple of 996s languish on dealer lots since last August. On the other hand 993s in my area seem to sell within a week or two, which would suggest that dealers are selling them at the asked for price.
The result is that 996s appear to be depreciating much faster than any other 911. Granted that I have no evidence other than a few anecdotal experiences to support my view, but at least in my area I have seen a couple of 996s languish on dealer lots since last August. On the other hand 993s in my area seem to sell within a week or two, which would suggest that dealers are selling them at the asked for price.
03-04-2005, 09:27 AM
#30
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I truly believe if this was such a big problem for some of you.....You wouldn't be still driving the car after 3,5 or 7 RMS repairs. I know there would be no way in hell i would . This would be like a women walking all over you again and again, how many of you would put up with that? There are so many great cars out there in the price range you wouldn't haveto worry about RMS leaks.In rebuttal to Fast1...Tho you have a good point that 993 could sell faster then the 996, however i think thats because the 996 was the most built and sold Porsche ever. The depreciating 996 is just supply and demand.993 owners are of a different bread i think, they will pay more for less, and at the same time the 993 has it problems too.I know after having a RMS leak, it doesn't change the fact how i love this car,after 7 it would. I just know i wouldn't buy a 997 .