Flakes in oil and tapping
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From: Alabama USA
Sorry Skip, might have been a little harsh on the poor m96, but tell me anything I've said that's not true...
Cylinder out of round and cyl taper are a big m96 problem, as is the defective block structure that causes those problems. All the m96 experts say by 100k miles all m96 blocks are over the oor/taper limit. And that limit is the highest out of round/taper spec for any engine I've seen.
Charles from LN states .0035 thousands is max limit. The 1 block I've measured was at .00265 thousands, almost at max @ 60,000 miles, and with a perfect looking bore no scoring at all. The pistons must be coated with an iron type antiwear coating or the aluminum pistons will score the loco-sil cylinders quickly. This coating was almost gone off the pistons/engine I measured.
So bottom line, if trying to reuse 125,000 mile oem loco-sil cylinder blocks with old pistons or new very expensive oem pistons, or aftermarket pistons/rings, you'd have a slim chance of rings sealing.
Also would have a short ring life with reduced whp, possible burning gobs of oil and lots of blow by. But its a gamble, maybe if you had not to far out of spec oor/taper and used new pistons with the right iron coating to be compatible with the oem loco-sil and got lucky maybe they'd seal up somewhat. But no getting past out of spec oor/taper for reduced whp output & efficiency & engine life....
Oh ya, cost for nikies is closer to $7500 after cores shipped and reengineered cyls are shipped back +taxes/etc. Maybe closer to $9.5g's if those cracked cap rods got a little bent from aos introducing a few teaspoons of oil into the cylinders for a partial hydrolock somewhere in that engines life....
And lets not forget about the crank that LN Charles says half of all rebuilds that come in have cracks. have it magna fluxed for cracks, balanced and micro polished, if it test good for no cracks...or if you're in the unlucky half, maybe add $6k for a new crank or 4k for a reconditioned one if you can find it
Cylinder out of round and cyl taper are a big m96 problem, as is the defective block structure that causes those problems. All the m96 experts say by 100k miles all m96 blocks are over the oor/taper limit. And that limit is the highest out of round/taper spec for any engine I've seen.
Charles from LN states .0035 thousands is max limit. The 1 block I've measured was at .00265 thousands, almost at max @ 60,000 miles, and with a perfect looking bore no scoring at all. The pistons must be coated with an iron type antiwear coating or the aluminum pistons will score the loco-sil cylinders quickly. This coating was almost gone off the pistons/engine I measured.
So bottom line, if trying to reuse 125,000 mile oem loco-sil cylinder blocks with old pistons or new very expensive oem pistons, or aftermarket pistons/rings, you'd have a slim chance of rings sealing.
Also would have a short ring life with reduced whp, possible burning gobs of oil and lots of blow by. But its a gamble, maybe if you had not to far out of spec oor/taper and used new pistons with the right iron coating to be compatible with the oem loco-sil and got lucky maybe they'd seal up somewhat. But no getting past out of spec oor/taper for reduced whp output & efficiency & engine life....
Oh ya, cost for nikies is closer to $7500 after cores shipped and reengineered cyls are shipped back +taxes/etc. Maybe closer to $9.5g's if those cracked cap rods got a little bent from aos introducing a few teaspoons of oil into the cylinders for a partial hydrolock somewhere in that engines life....
And lets not forget about the crank that LN Charles says half of all rebuilds that come in have cracks. have it magna fluxed for cracks, balanced and micro polished, if it test good for no cracks...or if you're in the unlucky half, maybe add $6k for a new crank or 4k for a reconditioned one if you can find it
Actually if you wanted to do a bottom budget rebuild, if you read that post I did in 2019 posted above about the under $10k DIY you will see that Hartech was using an Aluminum ring around the top of the cylinders to hold/re-round them before he went to the full aluminum/nikasil cylinders like LN uses...
The problem Hartech was having was finding a piston coating that was as good and the factory Iron plating ( Ferrsostan)...All the coatings he tried failed..
BUT, in theory , he never tried to have the piston skirts Nikasil Plated...Nikasil obviously works with Hypo-eutectic Aluminum and should be just as robust as Iron Plating ....
Lokasil/Alusil is not a terrible cylinder coating and has been used for years and on many other models besides the m96/7. it is the piston coating that is the problem...
Someone should actually give this a try for a budget rebuild, but no-one with the skillz would also have the incentive, and someone with the incentive usually doesn't have the skilz, and there is no business model there..
But installing the cylinder support rings, and plating just the piston skirts with Nikasil would not be very expensive...
I may try this on my next rebuild, but my engines are in good health and I know how to keep them that way....
Last edited by Porschetech3; Oct 11, 2024 at 08:29 PM.
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2024
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I may be mistaken but I thought that cars from 99 and 2000 were pre lokasil so they had the good cylinder coating/ no bore score issues?
I pinpointed the noise to the very back left corner of the engine and it didn’t really exist anywhere else, base on that location why are people saying it’s a rod bearing? Isn’t there any other possible source for metal like that that’s closer to where I am hearing the noise? Before I saw the chips I thought maybe a valve or lifter got stuck/ floated or something is this wishful thinking?
I pinpointed the noise to the very back left corner of the engine and it didn’t really exist anywhere else, base on that location why are people saying it’s a rod bearing? Isn’t there any other possible source for metal like that that’s closer to where I am hearing the noise? Before I saw the chips I thought maybe a valve or lifter got stuck/ floated or something is this wishful thinking?
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 7,447
Likes: 4,909
From: Delaware
Bore scoring is not the same as the cylinders ovaling (going out or round).
At a minimum, pull the motor and pull the heads. If u dont find anything wrong, split the case and u r in for a full rebuild.
If the heads r good u can put them on a porsche short block and get it running for $10-12ish.
At a minimum, pull the motor and pull the heads. If u dont find anything wrong, split the case and u r in for a full rebuild.
If the heads r good u can put them on a porsche short block and get it running for $10-12ish.
Banned
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 472
Likes: 177
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Lol
OP- drive the thing. See what happens. it will not die unless you put a bullet in its head (figuratively speaking - although i suppose you could shoot it with a gun). It does sound a bit toast as-is. Sounded like true bore scoring until you stepped on it halfway through the video and it gave a grinding sound - that's really the only sound that made my brow raise. Sounds like bad bore scoring otherwise.
Buy a used m96 and throw it in. Drive it into the ground.
edit i will also admit i don't have enough info to give a serious response (even tho i was being sort of serious).
does it burn oil? smoke? no power? misfire? have you done a compression test? love PT3 chiming in on being embarrassed (do u think he's embarrassed??) and then going off on how he destroyed his "race engine"
OP- drive the thing. See what happens. it will not die unless you put a bullet in its head (figuratively speaking - although i suppose you could shoot it with a gun). It does sound a bit toast as-is. Sounded like true bore scoring until you stepped on it halfway through the video and it gave a grinding sound - that's really the only sound that made my brow raise. Sounds like bad bore scoring otherwise.
Buy a used m96 and throw it in. Drive it into the ground.
edit i will also admit i don't have enough info to give a serious response (even tho i was being sort of serious).
does it burn oil? smoke? no power? misfire? have you done a compression test? love PT3 chiming in on being embarrassed (do u think he's embarrassed??) and then going off on how he destroyed his "race engine"
Last edited by hkovalcik; Oct 11, 2024 at 08:52 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,773
Likes: 7,062
From: Alabama USA
Lol
OP- drive the thing. See what happens. it will not die unless you put a bullet in its head (figuratively speaking - although i suppose you could shoot it with a gun). It does sound a bit toast as-is. Sounded like true bore scoring until you stepped on it halfway through the video and it gave a grinding sound - that's really the only sound that made my brow raise. Sounds like bad bore scoring otherwise.
Buy a used m96 and throw it in. Drive it into the ground.
edit i will also admit i don't have enough info to give a serious response (even tho i was being sort of serious).
does it burn oil? smoke? no power? misfire? have you done a compression test? love PT3 chiming in on being embarrassed (do u think he's embarrassed??) and then going off on how he destroyed his "race engine"
OP- drive the thing. See what happens. it will not die unless you put a bullet in its head (figuratively speaking - although i suppose you could shoot it with a gun). It does sound a bit toast as-is. Sounded like true bore scoring until you stepped on it halfway through the video and it gave a grinding sound - that's really the only sound that made my brow raise. Sounds like bad bore scoring otherwise.
Buy a used m96 and throw it in. Drive it into the ground.
edit i will also admit i don't have enough info to give a serious response (even tho i was being sort of serious).
does it burn oil? smoke? no power? misfire? have you done a compression test? love PT3 chiming in on being embarrassed (do u think he's embarrassed??) and then going off on how he destroyed his "race engine"
I don't know if he is embarrassed or not....I asked 3 times for the pre-failure report and didn't get squat...I will not ask again...lol
Yes I was definitely pissed off about loosing that Race Engine over a double O-ringed oil filter ( not embarrassed just pissed off) , my Crew Chief actually saw the fluid leaking just before the green light and could have stopped me, but it was the Final Round and he thought it was just coolant, and it only needed to run for 6 more seconds to get the WIN, but the engine locked up at full tilt in 2 gear, twisted the crankshaft..
You know how that is to run it till it dies...I see you say that often.....
Last edited by Porschetech3; Oct 11, 2024 at 09:34 PM.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2024
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I don't know if he is embarrassed or not....I asked 3 times for the pre-failure report and didn't get squat...I will not ask again...lol
Yes I was definitely pissed off about loosing that Race Engine over a double O-ringed oil filter ( not embarrassed just pissed off) , my Crew Chief actually saw the fluid leaking just before the green light and could have stopped me, but it was the Final Round and he thought it was just coolant, and it only needed to run for 6 more seconds to get the WIN, but the engine locked up at full tilt in 2 gear, twisted the crankshaft..
You know how that is to run it till it dies...I see you say that often.....
Yes I was definitely pissed off about loosing that Race Engine over a double O-ringed oil filter ( not embarrassed just pissed off) , my Crew Chief actually saw the fluid leaking just before the green light and could have stopped me, but it was the Final Round and he thought it was just coolant, and it only needed to run for 6 more seconds to get the WIN, but the engine locked up at full tilt in 2 gear, twisted the crankshaft..
You know how that is to run it till it dies...I see you say that often.....
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Verdad Gallardo
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Joined: Aug 2018
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From: N.Y.
Sorry for your issues….the good old what I call panning for gold.There is a lot of good advice on this thread.i have disassembled three 996 short block I acquired on the cheap two off them unusable crankshafts .The debris in both oil pans looked like yours.Before you pull the engine out and apart do a deep dive and search the various threads on rennlisters who documented their engine rebuilds.To name but a few:SoundnSpeed,Logray,carlvs,yazz996,OutNSpace. Rennlist user names.And there are others.Familiarize yourself with what it will take to rebuild your engine and cost before you dive in.May the Porsche gods be with you .-regards-
Banned
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 3,928
Likes: 4,378
From: Massachusetts
5.3 Iron LM7 $850 - 5.3 Alum LM4 $1500 - 6.2 Alum L92 $2000
LS3 style intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors - $700
Front sump oil pan $500
Accessory stuff - $500
DIY Intake - $250
Headers - $200
DIY Exhaust - $800
Motor mounts, trans adapter - $1950
Clutch/FW - $1883
Air conditioning plug and play with factory lines - $750
Electric power steering - $1000
Plug and Play ECU/Harness - $3000 (this can be done for cheaper if you do your own wiring, this is a P&P solution with full OEM functionality retained)
Cam/Valve springs - $800 (optional, but you should if you like to party)
Porsche DWB Pedal - Free, if you do this I'll send you mine
A bunch of this stuff could be done cheaper (wiring, electric PS) depending on your level of handiness and how much research you're willing to do, or more expensive. I would set aside $1K-$2K aside on top of this for misc stuff.
The installation is actually really easy. There is some cutting of sheetmetal needed to fit water pump which to be done right should be done with someone with some fabrication skills and welded back up when done but it's a couple hours work, once that's done the engine will just bolt right up, it's no harder than putting the M96 back in and because of the V configuration, there is a ton more room in the engine bay everywhere except above the intake manifold so its easy to work on. Actually, intake routing is pretty tight also but there are a lot of folks who have done this and you can reference how they did for your DIY creation,
The 5.3L engines will make 350WHP up and the 6.2L will make...more. The aluminum options will add no weight, the iron blocks weigh 100LBS more than aluminum variants. No matter what variant you choose, performance wise you are at or ahead of ANY M96 you will put back in at ANY price. You will also get the benefit of cheap parts available everywhere in stock. There are millions of these engines running on the road still, support compared to the M96 is reflective of that reality.
It's possible I'm forgetting something, feel free to reach out if you have any specific questions or post them up.
Good luck.
LS3 style intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors - $700
Front sump oil pan $500
Accessory stuff - $500
DIY Intake - $250
Headers - $200
DIY Exhaust - $800
Motor mounts, trans adapter - $1950
Clutch/FW - $1883
Air conditioning plug and play with factory lines - $750
Electric power steering - $1000
Plug and Play ECU/Harness - $3000 (this can be done for cheaper if you do your own wiring, this is a P&P solution with full OEM functionality retained)
Cam/Valve springs - $800 (optional, but you should if you like to party)
Porsche DWB Pedal - Free, if you do this I'll send you mine
A bunch of this stuff could be done cheaper (wiring, electric PS) depending on your level of handiness and how much research you're willing to do, or more expensive. I would set aside $1K-$2K aside on top of this for misc stuff.
The installation is actually really easy. There is some cutting of sheetmetal needed to fit water pump which to be done right should be done with someone with some fabrication skills and welded back up when done but it's a couple hours work, once that's done the engine will just bolt right up, it's no harder than putting the M96 back in and because of the V configuration, there is a ton more room in the engine bay everywhere except above the intake manifold so its easy to work on. Actually, intake routing is pretty tight also but there are a lot of folks who have done this and you can reference how they did for your DIY creation,
The 5.3L engines will make 350WHP up and the 6.2L will make...more. The aluminum options will add no weight, the iron blocks weigh 100LBS more than aluminum variants. No matter what variant you choose, performance wise you are at or ahead of ANY M96 you will put back in at ANY price. You will also get the benefit of cheap parts available everywhere in stock. There are millions of these engines running on the road still, support compared to the M96 is reflective of that reality.
It's possible I'm forgetting something, feel free to reach out if you have any specific questions or post them up.
Good luck.
Last edited by zbomb; Oct 12, 2024 at 12:16 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,400
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From: the perimeter
I'm not really a fan of engine Swaps due to the labor intensity and the changing of just about everything on the car....and usually the only real gain is HP and the labor is so involved that I don't think it worth it unless you have the cash to just pay someone else to do it....If you have the cash to lay out about $40k you can just hand the key over then collect the car back with more power and a different feel...
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 43
Likes: 27
Ran across Project 6 on facebook looks like they're planning to offer factory functionality Audi 4.2L V8 swap kits that don't require any cutting. Being facebook its hard to find any real information about it though.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/YVy6LN3QdebFyKBU/
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/YVy6LN3QdebFyKBU/
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 7,164
Likes: 5,799
From: Illinois
Ran across Project 6 on facebook looks like they're planning to offer factory functionality Audi 4.2L V8 swap kits that don't require any cutting. Being facebook its hard to find any real information about it though.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/YVy6LN3QdebFyKBU/
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/YVy6LN3QdebFyKBU/
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2024
Posts: 29
Likes: 23
5.3 Iron LM7 $850 - 5.3 Alum LM4 $1500 - 6.2 Alum L92 $2000
LS3 style intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors - $700
Front sump oil pan $500
Accessory stuff - $500
DIY Intake - $250
Headers - $200
DIY Exhaust - $800
Motor mounts, trans adapter - $1950
Clutch/FW - $1883
Air conditioning plug and play with factory lines - $750
Electric power steering - $1000
Plug and Play ECU/Harness - $3000 (this can be done for cheaper if you do your own wiring, this is a P&P solution with full OEM functionality retained)
Cam/Valve springs - $800 (optional, but you should if you like to party)
Porsche DWB Pedal - Free, if you do this I'll send you mine
A bunch of this stuff could be done cheaper (wiring, electric PS) depending on your level of handiness and how much research you're willing to do, or more expensive. I would set aside $1K-$2K aside on top of this for misc stuff.
The installation is actually really easy. There is some cutting of sheetmetal needed to fit water pump which to be done right should be done with someone with some fabrication skills and welded back up when done but it's a couple hours work, once that's done the engine will just bolt right up, it's no harder than putting the M96 back in and because of the V configuration, there is a ton more room in the engine bay everywhere except above the intake manifold so its easy to work on. Actually, intake routing is pretty tight also but there are a lot of folks who have done this and you can reference how they did for your DIY creation,
The 5.3L engines will make 350WHP up and the 6.2L will make...more. The aluminum options will add no weight, the iron blocks weigh 100LBS more than aluminum variants. No matter what variant you choose, performance wise you are at or ahead of ANY M96 you will put back in at ANY price. You will also get the benefit of cheap parts available everywhere in stock. There are millions of these engines running on the road still, support compared to the M96 is reflective of that reality.
It's possible I'm forgetting something, feel free to reach out if you have any specific questions or post them up.
Good luck.
LS3 style intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors - $700
Front sump oil pan $500
Accessory stuff - $500
DIY Intake - $250
Headers - $200
DIY Exhaust - $800
Motor mounts, trans adapter - $1950
Clutch/FW - $1883
Air conditioning plug and play with factory lines - $750
Electric power steering - $1000
Plug and Play ECU/Harness - $3000 (this can be done for cheaper if you do your own wiring, this is a P&P solution with full OEM functionality retained)
Cam/Valve springs - $800 (optional, but you should if you like to party)
Porsche DWB Pedal - Free, if you do this I'll send you mine
A bunch of this stuff could be done cheaper (wiring, electric PS) depending on your level of handiness and how much research you're willing to do, or more expensive. I would set aside $1K-$2K aside on top of this for misc stuff.
The installation is actually really easy. There is some cutting of sheetmetal needed to fit water pump which to be done right should be done with someone with some fabrication skills and welded back up when done but it's a couple hours work, once that's done the engine will just bolt right up, it's no harder than putting the M96 back in and because of the V configuration, there is a ton more room in the engine bay everywhere except above the intake manifold so its easy to work on. Actually, intake routing is pretty tight also but there are a lot of folks who have done this and you can reference how they did for your DIY creation,
The 5.3L engines will make 350WHP up and the 6.2L will make...more. The aluminum options will add no weight, the iron blocks weigh 100LBS more than aluminum variants. No matter what variant you choose, performance wise you are at or ahead of ANY M96 you will put back in at ANY price. You will also get the benefit of cheap parts available everywhere in stock. There are millions of these engines running on the road still, support compared to the M96 is reflective of that reality.
It's possible I'm forgetting something, feel free to reach out if you have any specific questions or post them up.
Good luck.
It seems to me that all of these are very good options, at the moment my mind is biasing towards taking a look a a 3.2 that’s for sale locally for $4k just because that would get me out cruising before fall is over then I could pull and resell it later.
As far as a proper swap goes the v8 option is great but the k swap seems simpler, half as many spark plugs/ injectors, less weight and Honda reliability and prices.
Nothing against the American v8 but my other car is a turbo Subaru with 278k on the clock so I trust the Japanese reliability for a used engine the most.
The other thing about the k swap that appeals to me is it seems like there would be a ton of room in the engine bay to work on stuff and pulling that engine seems more hassle free than the larger options.
What I might do is do a downgrade swap to a k motor and get it driving na just to prove to myself I can do it, then as a reward turbo it up to like 400-425 on stock internals. I’m going to figure out a parts list but I think that may be the second cheapest option and it’s got some serious upside potential with additional investment over time.
I think my taste for seriously troubleshooting or rebuilding this engine has soured thanks to all of your input, I really appreciate the bullet dodge.
Something that could definitely change the math is if my existing engine and exhaust are worth something, does anyone have a ballpark value for an engine in this condition? I would morally need to be upfront with pics of the oil included in the listing obviously but maybe some boxster folk would eat up the opportunity to rebuild a 3.4?