hardtailer

Where would these seam welds be on a street GT3?
I think that's an urban myth tbh.

Marv

Maybe. If it is a myth, then I bought into it.

GC996

I hear you.

For sure, if you can buy a 996 GT3 for a discount (track car or not) you are starting at a more advantageous and lower buy in price. But it's very tough to find. You can plug the numbers as you see fit. As an example, it will cost you approximateky $20-30k for a 996 M96 and $80-100 for a GT3. Big difference in buy-in capital requirements. If you are solely judging by financial outlay, the advantage goes to the 996 M96 of between ~$60-70K

But you still have the same suspension, exhaust, interior, exterior refresh costs on 20 year old parts. Including engine bay parts that are not specific to the Mezger. No advantages here on either car. Replacement parts and service cost alot of money.

Good news is that with the GT3 you don't have to replace the IMSB, but you still have to do the clutch and flywheel. So you save $2-3k with the GT3 engine since you dont have to replace the imsb. Advantage of ~$2-3k to GT3.

Yeah, if you are going to track the 996 M96, you gotta bolt on a better AOS and oil pan/sump. But you gotta pin your cooling system in the GT3. Net you are in an extra ~$3k with the 996 M96.

Quality rebuilds will run you the same. But they will both eventually need to be rebuilt. Most likely the M96 sooner than the Mezger. With the M96 rebuild you can boost the power and durability to get GT3 power specs. No advantage to either in a cost stand point. Depending on the condition of the mezger and it's previous usage conditions, the timing of the rebuild may be the same for both or much later with the Mezger. So the outlay of financial capital need for the Mezger rebuild may be a number of years later than the M96. Or maybe not. But I would give the advantage to the Mezger on timing.

Any way you want to slice it, the 996 M96 car is still substantially cheaper from a cash outlay stand point to own over time. What makes the GT3 attractive is that it is a GT3, so it may appreciate faster than the 996 M96 making up for the large cost differential over the next 10-20 years.

iImportantly, I am not saying the 996 M96 is better than the 996 GT3. I am saying that the financial commitment on a 20 year old 996 is less all in with a 996 M96 than a 996 GT3. It was a different story 10 and even 20 years ago when they were new. But today, the 996 M96 has depreciated massively changing the outcome of the equation

Either way, any Porsche is a financial commitment. Question is what commitment is any owner or buyer willing to make. It's a personal decision.

TexSquirrel

When I first bought my 996 for $20K, someone was selling their GT3 for $60K and he told me I would be better off just buying his track toy GT3.
Now I've spent that much, and a little more, on my 996, but I have a fresh engine with more HP than his stock GT3 had and I have a fresh suspension.
I'm pretty happy that I stuck with a base 996.
I'd rather build than buy.
I had a blast picking exactly the parts I wanted to use.

touringGT3

I recently purchased a 2002 C4S and while the price was relatively much cheaper compared to my previous 911s, I didn't expect to spend $37K in repairs/required refresh the first month of ownership. My current initial cost of ownership is just shy of $90K. Will probably need another $20K for a future PCCM+, exhaust system, and short shifter upgrades. For sure not the amount of money I planned for a "cheap" and old 911. LOL

GC996

You must have replaced everything. If you go first class with parts and service it's easy to hit $30k with the refresh (engine, exhaust, suspension, etc). Love to know what you did for $37! Maybe I am missing something good!

168glhs1986

If you fail to plan then plan to fail.

If you don't have a budget in mind before buying the car then enjoy the ride down the slippery slope. The next owner will certainly benefit from your hard earned dollars spent if you sell it.

I recommend keeping all 996's alive and spending all the monies on them. They are the best water cooled gen hands down.

De Jeeper

I would love to see that engine dyno of of over 385hp or even a real wheel dyno of 360+ on a punched out 3.6l. I been wondering what Jakes newest engines were capable of? One of these days i will get my 95k mile car to the dyno....i know its sad i cant find the time.

Marv

Most, not all, GT3s have either pinned or welded those coolant fittings by now. I still think $80+K is a little high for a mechanically sound car. In the end, as you say, you have invested a little more, but the resale will be better than a modified Carrera. Additionally, you get a better transmission that has steel synchros and the gears are easier to change. As for clutches, mine still had life in it when I replaced it at 143K miles (I bought the car with 5,500 miles, so it's all my usage). They are a stouter clutch, but nothing can save any clutch from a bad driver.

I agree on the personal decision. I consider myself very, very fortunate to own one and highly recommend it to anyone that is looking for such a car. The downside for some would be the reduction in sound deadening, lower ride height, and a somewhat less compliant ride, but they are one of the most bullet-proof variants of the 911.

KC-CarGuy

I think you meant to say, "First rule of Porsche Club is we don't talk about Porsche Club receipts."

But honestly, there is maintenance in ownership of all Porsches. I've gone from a Boxster, to a 944 Turbo, to a 996 C2, to a 996 Turbo... and then added a Boxster on the lift. Yes full circle. All required maintenance while owning, and some more than others.
My father use to always say, "We are all broke. Just, at different levels."

touringGT3

Sadly it wasn't even everything, The big items were KW V3 kit/drop links/control arms, new clutch/flywheel, IMS/RMS seal, detail/paint correction/ceramic coating, new tires, refinished wheels, new rocker panels, some old parts replaced, and maintenance work to bring the car up to date. Add dealer + expensive indy shop labor and taxes to get to that massive bill.

GC996

Yep. I get it. I just went thru my second 10 year engine refresh 2 years ago. So the parts, procedures and costs are fresh on my mind.

No question, you went first class with your suspension and its a big cost. But its worth it in my opinion. Same can be said for a high quality paint refresh, exhaust, interior refresh, wheels, brakes, etc.

Great to see what you are doing for your 996. I have had mine for 22 years and am looking forward to continuing my annual projects over the next 22 years. Next 4 years are already planned out. One of which is suspension refresh, so I look forward to hearing all about your KW3 which IA m considering.

Good luck with the refresh. The 996 is definately worth it.

allcool

To me, using the 996 TT is a more accurate valid comparison, that really sheds some light on the true value and cost of owning these cars....

The big difference is the m96 engine's required upgrades/maintenance. They can really add up fast. IMSB solution, bore score, out of round cylinders, timing chains/guides/pads,tensors etc. UAOS, oil sumps, water pumps, injectors, cracked heads, dropped valve seats, d-chunks, broken rods, pumps, cranks, cams,etc. While all the above can happen to any engine(maybe..?) its not the exception for a m96, its more of an occasional m96 failure rate %.

Actually, all it takes is the more than occasionally needed m96 full rebuild to put an owner way over the top price of a TT, A TT has a base engine good for well into the 200,000+ miles range running strong and quite. Its a rare oem m96 that can say the same.

A LN quality alum sleeved/nik'd rebuild is up to $32,000 base now on LN site. After shipping in core, and shipping out engine, even more $$$. And thats only if you don't need a $6k crank, that iirr Charles says half of all the m96 cranks he sees magnafluxed are cracked. And if you don't have a good core to turn in, even more $$$$, and thats a big possibility when talking about a m96 engine failure. And thats only $32+ if you do all the install/uninstall & shipping work yourself.

Some say, once the LN engine is in you're good to go for 300k miles, with big power. Probably true, but... The dyno thread shows most of the better ($30k+..?) LN/Hartech engines put out 300-340 whp. A 996 TT puts out stock oem chp at 415-445. Maybe 100 more CHP, on a TT,,, then with a tune a TT can make ridiculous power.... Some of the turbo guys have dialed in absurd HP that the TT seems to take well. Thats a huge plus for me as more HP in sports cars is always better...

Then add in TT's better brakes/suspension/tranny/wheels/tires, body works, wide body, etc....

Not saying you can't get that perfect m96 car from the widower thats selling her late husbands fully sorted 4.0 pride and joy, for cheap. it happens...
Keep in mind when buying a used car, most sell used cars when there is a problem or a few i$$ue$ they get overwhelmed with. . not many sell a perfectly good car that needs nothing and runs strong and quite. For a m96, its the problems that can crop up in a used m96 are truly horrific and drastically expensive...

jmho

GC996

No question. The turbo is the biggest bargain in 996 land.

But it also comes down to narrow vs wide body discussions. I respect all the work that some of the guys like the PRF has done to lighten and make more nimble his turbo for the track. That costs money as well. But you get much big power. I get it. I also get that some guys like wide body cars over narrow bodies. And vis aversa. I prefer narrow.

This is a good and relavant discussion for all. Comes down to what you are looking for the car to do and the driving characteristics you want. Regardless, it will cost you money. That's really the issue behind the discussion. You don't buy a 20 year old Porsche thinking you won't have to spend money to keep it running. And you will spend money to make enhancements that you want. Slippery slope.

It's a good conversation.

DP8

First off, great thread and conversation! Like GC996 said above, for me it comes down to that I really enjoy the experience I get out of these specific cars and I am willing to spend the money to maintain and improve them. The experience of a 996 is different from a 997, 991, etc. so it really comes down to what you want. At some point in the life of these cars you will be paying the maintenance costs if you decide to keep them unless you try to flip the car into the next before paying too much maintenance and you continue to do that.

I keep what I love and pay to keep them running well. I have a 2008 E90 M3 with the N/A V8 that I bought new and I am about to replace the rod bearings, valve covers, brakes, and a few other bits and bobs of preventative maintenance. Similar to the 996 there are well known issues that need to be addressed with the E90 M3s and they run great if you stay on top of the key items and do regular maintenance. I'll probably do a refresh or upgraded suspension bits in a couple years. Hydraulic steering, N/A V8 throttle response, V8 rumble and good looks are things I can't get from a new G80 M3 so I am going to keep spending money to keep the E90 going and make it better.

I've had my 2003 996 C2 for about a month now and about 1,500 miles so far. I am starting to feel the same way about the 996 as I do about the E90, which is that it is a keeper. It's just a super fun car to drive that feels like the essence of an everyday drivable sports car. I've mostly been commuting with it to work about 25 miles of backroads every day and it is perfect for the job. Good power, N/A power delivery, feels nimble, plenty of storage, very comfortable, visibility is great...I could go on and on. It's less intense than my GT4 and better as an everyday driver. My ignition switch is having some hiccups so I need to get that replaced and then planning the UAOS for later this year and maybe a Function First shift kit or Numeric to shorten the shift a little bit. Upgrades that I am more than happy to do to improve the car.