Darn. Someone let the cat out of the bag. Video on 996 prices increasing.
07-11-2019, 12:20 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
And they’ve all been here for years, too.. My newest engine builder has now been here for 14 years, and everyone is paid well for what they do. Every year engines go up in price, as my costs increase. Every year we find something else that needs to be replaced, as the cars age, so we add that into the price.
07-11-2019, 01:22 AM
#32
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I did ok with my foray into the 996 world. Had some fun, learned some stuff, made some money. I might do it again, but if so, it'll be the roller with a rebuild plan. The hard part comes in when one wants to sell a 996 for $30k in a $23k market. Gotta justify that extra scratch. That is where a 'signature' rebuild might come in handy. But - with the cost of the signature rebuild being what it is, and the time constraint being what it is, and the overhead involved in engine exchange, fluids, cleaning, brakes, detail, maybe some suspension repairs, the margin just goes away.
In my theoretical 'roller rebuild' I've got maybe $28k all in. If I want a 10% on my money, I gotta advertise for $31k, and that blows the deal right there. We need cheaper rollers, or cheaper rebuilds. I'm not sure on the LS swap plan, and if there's a market for them. Maybe a real well done car.
In my theoretical 'roller rebuild' I've got maybe $28k all in. If I want a 10% on my money, I gotta advertise for $31k, and that blows the deal right there. We need cheaper rollers, or cheaper rebuilds. I'm not sure on the LS swap plan, and if there's a market for them. Maybe a real well done car.
07-11-2019, 07:15 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
The 996 is not at the bottom of the curve yet. The 986 is at the bottom, but what is the difference? You can pick up a 986 for $5K that is a mess, but even the worst 996s are still in the 15K range. Why is that significant? Because for $5K you can pick up a 986 and part it out for more than what you paid for it. I am starting to see more and more Boxsters bought just to be taken apart. The 996 hasn’t quite hit that point yet, but it is close. When this happens a lot of cars will very quickly leave the market and the remaining ones will all seem to look better. It takes a couple years for this to happen and with the number of cars sold don’t expect to be turning big profits for 5-6 years.
My personal prediction is the Boxster will actually turn the corner first and start going back up. Trying to find a very clean 97 boxster is getting very difficult at this point. Most of them are pretty abused. These will start to become increasingly harder to find until they start escalating in value. Once that happens then the S models will start to go up and at the point it costs the same to get a 986 or 996 the 996 will take off. Everyone will argue the 986 is just like a 944 or a 914 and will never be worth big money. That is not true for 2 reasons. First it looks like a 996 from the front. Second it has the same engine as the 996 (with less HP). The 944s were puffed up Audis and the 914 was also more VW than Porsche. If you want proof of my point try to buy a 914-6. They were never cheap like a 914 and currently are worth as much as any early 911. Why because they are more 911 than 914. Boxster is the same. Watch the Boxster values and you will know when the 996s will take off. The cars were made together and will forever be linked.
My personal prediction is the Boxster will actually turn the corner first and start going back up. Trying to find a very clean 97 boxster is getting very difficult at this point. Most of them are pretty abused. These will start to become increasingly harder to find until they start escalating in value. Once that happens then the S models will start to go up and at the point it costs the same to get a 986 or 996 the 996 will take off. Everyone will argue the 986 is just like a 944 or a 914 and will never be worth big money. That is not true for 2 reasons. First it looks like a 996 from the front. Second it has the same engine as the 996 (with less HP). The 944s were puffed up Audis and the 914 was also more VW than Porsche. If you want proof of my point try to buy a 914-6. They were never cheap like a 914 and currently are worth as much as any early 911. Why because they are more 911 than 914. Boxster is the same. Watch the Boxster values and you will know when the 996s will take off. The cars were made together and will forever be linked.
07-11-2019, 08:05 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
But why was the 914-6 desirable? The 924 Turbo was rare too, but nobody really wants those. Because it has a 911 engine, transmission, brakes and suspension on a 914 (which was still ugly). You got a 911 at a discount, but actually it was an overall better car. Boxster is the same. Drive a 996 and 986 back to back, you will be amazed at how much better the 986 feels. Yes the 911 is faster, but the Boxster handles better, sounds better, shifts better and in my opinion looks better. It is a better car than the 911 in a similar way the 914-6 was. I am not going to argue the uptick in 996 prices, but they will not “take off” until the 986 does at the same time. Neither will happen until a lot of them get dismantled and supply and demand kicks in.
07-11-2019, 11:44 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
I've seen you post this same thing many times already. Not sure what your situation was but I've spoken to FSI several times about a rebuild. They been nothing but helpful. I even asked them a few times not to waste any time with me if they were busy. They ALWAYS responded with a thorough email/phone call. They made it very clear to me that they simply love what they do, even if the person they are speaking to isn't likely to be a customer.
Not sure where you got the $40k figure, but my proposal was in the $20's. Your story seems to have more to it than you're leading on.
FSI is the only shop I would trust with my engine build. I'm a business owner myself and I get why their shop is so unique.
Not sure where you got the $40k figure, but my proposal was in the $20's. Your story seems to have more to it than you're leading on.
FSI is the only shop I would trust with my engine build. I'm a business owner myself and I get why their shop is so unique.
$40k for a FSI rebuild is - how you say? Fear mongering! Exactly what all the naysayers accuse Jake of doing. Firstly, they do several levels of re-builds - obviously there are cost differentials associated with each level. Depending on level of build you're looking for, and the "extra options" you choose, the costs range from around $20k - $30k. Could you push mid $30's to $40k if you asked them to do something crazy? I don't know - you'd have to ask them, but in my experience the costs do add up quickly - communication is the key to keeping costs in line, and I have to say that while it is expensive, none of the costs (for either parts or labor) are unfair/out of line. My cost was mid $20's and Jake gave me a bunch a credits for work that I had done the previous season (IMS Solution, Clutch etc...). ** I could have done the re-build myself, but after doing the full engine out thing just a year earlier (which I really sort of enjoyed) I decided to bite the bullet and spend the money (and save a lot of potential headaches and be sure everything was done the best way possible - with all the knowledge and experience of FSI - it really wasn't a difficult decision). I've just passed about 900 miles on the new engine and really couldn't be happier. The power and smoothness of the new 3.8l engine is intoxicating, and so much better than the stock 3.4l. Best of all is that I should never have to worry about this motor again, unless I do something really stupid. On top of that, these motors hold their value, and add to the low resale value of the stock cars. I'm still going to do a full critique of the entire experience of the re-build starting from my first conversation with FSI right through to the point when I write the critique. I'll pull no punches and I'll do a full listing of pro's and con's of the process
07-11-2019, 12:11 PM
#36
Former Vendor
Yes, I can count on one hand how many M9X engines here have had an invoice of 40K+ with us. Most of these high value builds are 9a1 and aircooled builds. Hell, last year I built a 50K+ 4 cylinder aircooled engine, based from a 914 engine.
Someone across the country who wants a top tier M9X engine could see a 40K overall expenditure, as 4-4,500 of the cost could be spent in vehicle transport alone. On top of that, there are customer chosen options that can also add into things. Like I said, I try to prepare potential purchasers of an overall worst case scenario for project costs, not just what my invoice is going to total. I hate hidden costs when I am purchasing something, and therefore try to remove these for the buyer. My overall goal is to make someone’s final invoice on the day that we start the process, and generate their invoice, which matched the proposed cost of the engine as outlined in my14 page document, that lacks any fine print. If the total changes, its because someone added a customer selected option, because the engine or car had some odd issue (that we documented) or because the engine was a total loss due to collateral damage from an epic failure that was not expected by anyone. In the case of the latter, the proposal outlines 8 major items that must be in serviceable condition for the reconstruction process. If these are not, then the price has to change. Again, these are called out on day #1.
I hate change, and hate having to add costs. Both of these mean that I have to waste my time sitting in a damn office chair, on the phone. That is not where I belong, and not why I started this business.
I look forward to this. Please include all of the insane challenges that we ran into with the fuel system in the car, and especially how we had to replace the cylinder heads after the last butcher got ahold of them, and the rest of the engine! That issue was a new one, and will add critical info to my classes in the future, as I am sure this issue will be experienced more and more as these cars age.
Your build further changed the way things are done here, in regard to preparing purchasers for the challenges of an aging vehicle. Sub- systems of the vehicle are often confused with engine components, and it’s hard to convey all of what we may have to deal with up front.
The engine build has to stop somewhere, and vehicle repairs have to start somewhere, but that line in the sand is very hard to draw, and harder to convey. I’m working on a video for all new purchasers that goes over this, and shows what we will do, and more importantly what we will not do, for the cost of the engine.
Luckily I only have to get through the next 6 years of changes (aging) of these cars.
Every single aspect of your process had some sort of hiccup, from inbound shipping, to finding truck space to get the car home. I don’t want you to pull punches, I want something I can share with each new prospect for our engine program, that will scare the pants off him, and run him away. Those that remain will understand exactly how bad it can be, what can happen, and maybe then a realistic expectation will be conveyed.
After all that we did end up with a positive result, and we both stayed respected, and stayed dedicated to each other, and getting to the finish line with the project. It was never a possibility of throwing in the towel, and we never had any disagreements. Part of that is due to positive, constant communication, I believe.
Someone across the country who wants a top tier M9X engine could see a 40K overall expenditure, as 4-4,500 of the cost could be spent in vehicle transport alone. On top of that, there are customer chosen options that can also add into things. Like I said, I try to prepare potential purchasers of an overall worst case scenario for project costs, not just what my invoice is going to total. I hate hidden costs when I am purchasing something, and therefore try to remove these for the buyer. My overall goal is to make someone’s final invoice on the day that we start the process, and generate their invoice, which matched the proposed cost of the engine as outlined in my14 page document, that lacks any fine print. If the total changes, its because someone added a customer selected option, because the engine or car had some odd issue (that we documented) or because the engine was a total loss due to collateral damage from an epic failure that was not expected by anyone. In the case of the latter, the proposal outlines 8 major items that must be in serviceable condition for the reconstruction process. If these are not, then the price has to change. Again, these are called out on day #1.
I hate change, and hate having to add costs. Both of these mean that I have to waste my time sitting in a damn office chair, on the phone. That is not where I belong, and not why I started this business.
I'm still going to do a full critique of the entire experience of the re-build starting from my first conversation with FSI right through to the point when I write the critique. I'll pull no punches and I'll do a full listing of pro's and con's of the process
Your build further changed the way things are done here, in regard to preparing purchasers for the challenges of an aging vehicle. Sub- systems of the vehicle are often confused with engine components, and it’s hard to convey all of what we may have to deal with up front.
The engine build has to stop somewhere, and vehicle repairs have to start somewhere, but that line in the sand is very hard to draw, and harder to convey. I’m working on a video for all new purchasers that goes over this, and shows what we will do, and more importantly what we will not do, for the cost of the engine.
Luckily I only have to get through the next 6 years of changes (aging) of these cars.
Every single aspect of your process had some sort of hiccup, from inbound shipping, to finding truck space to get the car home. I don’t want you to pull punches, I want something I can share with each new prospect for our engine program, that will scare the pants off him, and run him away. Those that remain will understand exactly how bad it can be, what can happen, and maybe then a realistic expectation will be conveyed.
After all that we did end up with a positive result, and we both stayed respected, and stayed dedicated to each other, and getting to the finish line with the project. It was never a possibility of throwing in the towel, and we never had any disagreements. Part of that is due to positive, constant communication, I believe.
Last edited by Flat6 Innovations; 07-11-2019 at 12:32 PM.
07-11-2019, 12:28 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
I look forward to this. Please include all of the insane challenges that we ran into with the fuel system in the car, and especially how we had to replace the cylinder heads after the last butcher got ahold of them, and the rest of the engine! That issue was a new one, and will add critical info to my classes in the future, as I am sure this issue will be experienced more and more as these cars age.
Your build further changed the way things are done here, in regard to preparing purchasers for the challenges of an aging vehicle. Sub- systems of the vehicle are often confused with engine components, and it’s hard to convey all of what we may have to deal with up front.
The engine build has to stop somewhere, and vehicle repairs have to start somewhere, but that line in the sand is very hard to draw, and harder to convey. I’m working on a video for all new purchasers that goes over this, and shows what we will do, and more importantly what we will not do, for the cost of the engine.
Luckily I only have to get through the next 6 years of changes (aging) of these cars.
Every single aspect of your process had some sort of hiccup, from inbound shipping, to finding truck space to get the car home. I don’t want you to pull punches, I want something I can share with each new prospect for our engine program, that will scare the pants off him, and run him away. Those that remain will understand exactly how bad it can be, what can happen, and maybe then a realistic expectation will be conveyed.
After all that we did end up with a positive result, and we both stayed respected, and stayed dedicated to each other, and getting to the finish line with the project. It was never a possibility of throwing in the towel, and we never had any disagreements. Part of that is due to positive communication, I believe.
Your build further changed the way things are done here, in regard to preparing purchasers for the challenges of an aging vehicle. Sub- systems of the vehicle are often confused with engine components, and it’s hard to convey all of what we may have to deal with up front.
The engine build has to stop somewhere, and vehicle repairs have to start somewhere, but that line in the sand is very hard to draw, and harder to convey. I’m working on a video for all new purchasers that goes over this, and shows what we will do, and more importantly what we will not do, for the cost of the engine.
Luckily I only have to get through the next 6 years of changes (aging) of these cars.
Every single aspect of your process had some sort of hiccup, from inbound shipping, to finding truck space to get the car home. I don’t want you to pull punches, I want something I can share with each new prospect for our engine program, that will scare the pants off him, and run him away. Those that remain will understand exactly how bad it can be, what can happen, and maybe then a realistic expectation will be conveyed.
After all that we did end up with a positive result, and we both stayed respected, and stayed dedicated to each other, and getting to the finish line with the project. It was never a possibility of throwing in the towel, and we never had any disagreements. Part of that is due to positive communication, I believe.
07-11-2019, 05:13 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
$40k for a FSI rebuild is - how you say? Fear mongering! Exactly what all the naysayers accuse Jake of doing. Firstly, they do several levels of re-builds - obviously there are cost differentials associated with each level. Depending on level of build you're looking for, and the "extra options" you choose, the costs range from around $20k - $30k. Could you push mid $30's to $40k if you asked them to do something crazy? I don't know - you'd have to ask them, but in my experience the costs do add up quickly - communication is the key to keeping costs in line, and I have to say that while it is expensive, none of the costs (for either parts or labor) are unfair/out of line. My cost was mid $20's and Jake gave me a bunch a credits for work that I had done the previous season (IMS Solution, Clutch etc...). ** I could have done the re-build myself, but after doing the full engine out thing just a year earlier (which I really sort of enjoyed) I decided to bite the bullet and spend the money (and save a lot of potential headaches and be sure everything was done the best way possible - with all the knowledge and experience of FSI - it really wasn't a difficult decision). I've just passed about 900 miles on the new engine and really couldn't be happier. The power and smoothness of the new 3.8l engine is intoxicating, and so much better than the stock 3.4l. Best of all is that I should never have to worry about this motor again, unless I do something really stupid. On top of that, these motors hold their value, and add to the low resale value of the stock cars. I'm still going to do a full critique of the entire experience of the re-build starting from my first conversation with FSI right through to the point when I write the critique. I'll pull no punches and I'll do a full listing of pro's and con's of the process
A little confusion here. My build was a stock 3.2 Carrera bottom up build. Car was/is in great shape, needed top end, running great just no longer would pass CA SMOG test. So, I decided to do a full build. I was looking to set engine on a pallet and ship to FlatSix. I have several P cars and other toys, so time wasnt an issue ie. I didnt need it rushed just wanted a quality, stock spec 3.2 build.
No criticism just pointing my experience with Jake. First and last.
I wanted the best and was prepared to pay for it. But I like to respect the people I choose to do business with and my only interaction was less than respectful. So, I choose a different shop.
We all know Jake is the best and he has done and continues to do great things for Porsche owners.
07-11-2019, 05:21 PM
#39
Former Vendor
A little confusion here. My build was a stock 3.2 Carrera bottom up build. Car was/is in great shape, needed top end, running great just no longer would pass CA SMOG test. So, I decided to do a full build. I was looking to set engine on a pallet and ship to FlatSix. I have several P cars and other toys, so time wasnt an issue ie. I didnt need it rushed just wanted a quality, stock spec 3.2 build.
No criticism just pointing my experience with Jake. First and last.
I wanted the best and was prepared to pay for it. But I like to respect the people I choose to do business with and my only interaction was less than respectful. So, I choose a different shop.
We all know Jake is the best and he has done and continues to do great things for Porsche owners.
No criticism just pointing my experience with Jake. First and last.
I wanted the best and was prepared to pay for it. But I like to respect the people I choose to do business with and my only interaction was less than respectful. So, I choose a different shop.
We all know Jake is the best and he has done and continues to do great things for Porsche owners.
Yes, anything aircooled starts at 35K, and that’s a stock rebuild/ restoration with no corners cut. 40K is very easy to spend for any aircooled performance engine here.
One reason for this is simple, I build all the aircooled engines personally, and value my time accordingly.
07-11-2019, 05:21 PM
#40
just one question (I didnt have time to read all the posts in detail).
Are you saying that an M96 engine rebuild is costing here close to 30K? Or are you talking about a whole car rebuild?
Are you saying that an M96 engine rebuild is costing here close to 30K? Or are you talking about a whole car rebuild?
07-11-2019, 06:27 PM
#41
Former Vendor
30k is the upper end for most builds, and usually the price is driven by a traumatic failure of the original engine.
At the present the prices for most of my engines are:
-Stage 1: 22.5- 24.5K
-Stage 2: 25.5- 26.5K
- Stage 3: 28.5K
- R Series (R43 &R44) 4.3 and 4.4L builds 30K+
These constantly change, and rarely go down, only up. There are times where elective jobs can be less money, so these figures are not written in stone. Also consider there’s 17 engine designations in the M9X family, so the prices will vary based on designation, application, failure, options and etc.
The only thing that stays the same is that everything constantly changes.
Yes, you can
“buy another car for what this costs”
07-11-2019, 07:53 PM
#42
Pro
Yes, anything aircooled starts at 35K, and that’s a stock rebuild/ restoration with no corners cut. 40K is very easy to spend for any aircooled performance engine here.
One reason for this is simple, I build all the aircooled engines personally, and value my time accordingly.
One reason for this is simple, I build all the aircooled engines personally, and value my time accordingly.
07-11-2019, 10:03 PM
#43
Former Vendor
This caught my eye from some past experience. In 2006 the engine on my 911SC blew at 295K miles. The good news: the engine was never cracked open for any repairs before that; yes the 911SC engine can go a long time without needing any work. The estimates I was getting were in the $10K-$12k range for a full rebuild just for the engine work itself (not the R&R and ancillaries) and clearly Jake's price includes everything. And that was a long time ago and certainly prices have gone up. Realistically it also needed the interior redone (leather and carpet), and also new paint, shocks, sound system, Targa top repair, and on and on. These cars were going for $15-20K at the time, so I sold it as a roller for $4K. Oh well.........
Of course back then I had 3 employees dedicated to aircooled engines, and since I have cross- trained them all to M9X and the last aircooled builder transitioned straight to the 9a1 side of the house. He still does some aircooled work, but as the 9a1 gets more popular here, he does less of aircooled. I pretty much task him with the 4 cylinder aircooled engines, and keep the Mezger builds for myself.
If you think an M9X is expensive for what you get, my 4 cylinder builds are 27-32k in general, and that’s for 200HP. The wait list for those is almost as long as the M9X, too.
07-14-2019, 07:16 PM
#44
I like the 996. To me, it's more of a driver's car than the 997. It just feels better to me. I and many other people would find an even newer 911 much too extravagant for our budgets. That much money invested wisely yields a significant monthly return. You can have so much more fun at an affordable price point with a 996, despite the aggravation. I love mine. I would not part with it for less than 30K. Its a fabulous car. I hope people come to appreciate it someday. But if they don't, I don't care. I'm never selling mine
07-14-2019, 08:50 PM
#45
yeah they just ain't worth diddly squat and won't ever be worth nothing mass produced same front end of the car as boxster cheap quality squeaks and rattles galore ims bearing blowing up every 2 seconds not air cooled headlights LOL wishful thinking though best of the best might go up a little but wont never be worth nothing for collector value like old real porsches