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Darn. Someone let the cat out of the bag. Video on 996 prices increasing.

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Darn. Someone let the cat out of the bag. Video on 996 prices increasing.

 
Old 07-10-2019, 02:30 PM
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TechSavvySam
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Default Darn. Someone let the cat out of the bag. Video on 996 prices increasing.

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Old 07-10-2019, 02:56 PM
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Prelude Guy
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I think the 996s are going up in value a little because there's a misunderstanding about these engines. The masses think the IMS bearing is the only issue with them. I've seen people say once the IMSB is replaced, the engine is bulletproof. Lol No, no it's not!!

I bought the 996 for the same reason why I bought my C4 6-spd Vette. Least desired, but will become more desirable over time since most people want 993s and 997s. In the Corvette world, it's all about the C5, C6, and C7s. I've been getting more and more compliments on my C4 as time passes.

I believe well-kept 996s will go up in value because there is always a group of people who like to be different. Have a 996 with a properly rebuilt engine and the car will be more valuable as more and more people realize the M96 has so many issues.

I predict '99-'01 996s will be more sought after as time passes. I know most people don't know the heritage behind the headlights, but since they are so different, they get more desirable. The stigma of the 986 and 996s sharing front ends has passed, just like the stigma behind the first Gen Miata passed. Who would've thought a car bought by rich parents for their teen daughters would become so popular at track days!! Lol

Time will tell! I'm just glad I bought my 996s at the bottom of the depreciation curve!
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:01 PM
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I predict more rollers to come...
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:05 PM
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"....Many examples out there have the maintenance done on the IMS bearing that makes it a non-issue".

Oh - hell - no. FEW examples out there have had anything done to the IMS, and fewer of those have the permanent solution installed. It is a HUGE time bomb in all 996 M96 versions. I would(and did) reduce my buying price by at least $2000 due to no IMS work on any M96 engine.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 808Bill View Post
I predict more rollers to come...
That's the only way I think people should buy a 996!

The 996, to me, is a car that screams "do it right the first time or don't do it at all". Buy a nice roller and have it shipped to F6I for a rebuild. Sure, it costs more but you can at least enjoy it. Plus, you will recoup a lot of that back if it needs to be sold. I think it's actually cheaper to do it this way. Practically all of the major maintenance is done at once.

Look at how many people have been posting about blown engines. Quick way to lose $10k+!
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:40 PM
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IMO the best thing that could happen to the 996 market is educated buyers that might lead to a wider price range between well maintained examples and unmaintained ones.

When I was searching for a 996 Coupe (this whole discussion based on Carrera 2 trim) last year here in Atlanta, I saw two sets of examples:

1) Prices around $18K that were ragged out cosmetically. I pretty much assumed they were in horrible mechanical shape too.
2) Prices around $25K for ones that "appeared" to be clean.

I eliminated all #1 examples pretty quickly.

Now, I was left with #2 cars and really how do you tell a well maintained one from a poorly maintained one?

One thing I know now, is that if the car has a legitimately installed IMS Solution, then it had to go through a prequalification process which means at the time the solution was installed, there was no visible bore scoring or other signs of impending engine failure.

Without that assurance, then are you going to drop the sump cover during the PPI and check for debris and for bore scoring from under the pistons? But what if someone dropped the sump cover and removed the debris before you got there? For example, after I bought my car I dropped the cover and found one timing chain roller, BUT there were 2 missing when FSI got into it. So that means someone else removed one of the rollers from the sump along the way.

Ultimately, right now the problem with the 996 is their engines are an achilles heel *AND* at the current prices, a solid replacement engine costs almost as much or more than the car, so a severely failed engine totals the car.

So the best thing the market could do is adjust based on the seller's ability to document the state of the engine but something has got to give because those ragged out examples need to be selling closer to $10K and fully documented well maintained need to be selling for $35K. But that's not going to happen in the near future especially because the NA 996 prices will probably always be well below the turbos, because if the NA price gets too high, a buyer will just go pick up a turbo instead.

There's also the greater fool issue where in someone will aways be sucked into paying too much for a bad example. I probably fall into that category. I bought mine with the plans to spend probably $6K in maintenance to get the IMSB and some other issues resolved. The reality ended up being more like $15K, so I will likely forever be upside down on this car but frankly I don't care because I bought the exact car I wanted to keep forever.

I'm a steward of the things I own--I maintain them and improve them and that's what I will do with my 996. Some people are consumers--they buy something and let it wear out from lack of maintenance or improper use. I see the same thing with houses.

The problem for stewards is that it is often hard to acquired poorly maintained items for what they are really worth because someone else will come along and pay more--unless you are at the right place at the right time, and someone is very desperate to sell. For example I know a guy that bought a 996 private party for around $5K, but he's in the car business and the seller mentioned the need to sell *because* my acquaintance is in the car business.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Prelude Guy View Post
That's the only way I think people should buy a 996!

The 996, to me, is a car that screams "do it right the first time or don't do it at all". Buy a nice roller and have it shipped to F6I for a rebuild. Sure, it costs more but you can at least enjoy it. Plus, you will recoup a lot of that back if it needs to be sold. I think it's actually cheaper to do it this way. Practically all of the major maintenance is done at once.

Look at how many people have been posting about blown engines. Quick way to lose $10k+!
...and your engine doesn't have to even be blown to for the costs to mount. Just keep in mind when pricing the roller, it isn't worth more than a couple thousand bucks without an engine or if the engine core isn't rebuildable due to catastrophic failure.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:44 PM
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Are far as values go most of the 911s over they years have had some Achilles heel problem that required a complete rebuild if not caught in time. The IMSB is just another one of these. The early cars just wore out by 100K requiring a rebuild regardless of treatment. The 74-77 engines had the reactors and 7 blade fans which lead to head studs being pulled out. If the studs were not properly replaced it would require a rebuild of the engine. The 78-83 engines were actually pretty bullet proof, but still valve guides would wear out by 120K requiring the heads to be rebuilt. The 84-88 engines had valve problems that would lead to an engine rebuild, but those were not that common. The 993s had a variety of problems depending on year. Then the 2001-2004 cars have the weak IMSB followed by the bore scoring issues.

Face it, these are high performance cars with cutting edge for the time engines that will wear out. Expecting them to be 300K mile Honda engines is pretty unrealistic. The fact that most of them make it to 150K on just regular maintenance is pretty amazing. However they are not 40K mile Ferrari engines either. If you buy a 20 year old Porsche and are shocked when you have to cough up 15-20K for an engine rebuild then maybe you should be looking at a different car. If I loose the engine in my Boxster or 911 I will pull it myself and let it sit until I either rebuild it or find a good replacement. I have daily driver cars to......well drive daily. As these things get older and enthusiasts and collectors start to buy them the days of them being daily driven will fade away. That will happen as the values begin to rise and you no longer want to endanger your investment so to speak.

Facts are the styling is actually aging better than I expected it to, they are great performing cars that are as fast as most stuff sold today and they are Porsche 911s. They will go up in value, but probably not a lot for another 5 years or so. My 2 cents YMMV
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:50 PM
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Sadly, due to the bearing, and other engine issues(and headlights), the 996 has taken the place of the 928 as the poor step-child of the Porsche family. It's a spiral of neglect that we often tout on the 'craigslist find' thread. These cars start to trade lower, and lower, and lower with each defect in the example. The video seems to indicate that we have passed that nadir and are now on the way to a market where money/time is being expended to revive, or maintain examples to moderately decent standards.

I think there is some amount of truth to that. Some part of the market is seeing the non-concours cars going to decent money, mostly because all the ratty examples are trading in the mid-teens. There seems to be a minor resurgence in the really soft market of 2015-ish.

If I were to jump into the market again, I would find a semi-ratty example, and bargain the hell out of it, then slowly, and modestly clean up and fix up the warts. Hoping a complete respray can be avoided. But - that's just me. Plenty of buyers want a 'no excuses' car, and will pay for it.

Yes, I do take the sump off, and yes I do look for bore scoring down there, and bits from the chain guides. A regular PPI will not do this, and mores the pity, all they want to focus on scuffs on the wheels and scratched leather, all of which the buyer can see with their own eyes.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:05 PM
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Wow, lots of great comments on here. I'm "reviving" my 996, so if I die, please don't rip my wife off when she sells it!

I'm at 10 months of ownership and I'm down to 3 items left from the PPI list of things to fix.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:14 PM
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Oh my... oh my...

This forum never stops amazing me...
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:16 PM
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Wishful thinking. Most mass produced Porsche ever made. Maybe a slight increase in really exceptional examples, but most are still depreciating. Doesn't mean they're not a good buy.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:25 PM
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One of these videos pop up once a year. Nothing new. Although, I can see as more and more suffer engine failure and abandoned by owners... that'd eventually reduces inventories
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Prelude Guy View Post
That's the only way I think people should buy a 996!

The 996, to me, is a car that screams "do it right the first time or don't do it at all". Buy a nice roller and have it shipped to F6I for a rebuild. Sure, it costs more but you can at least enjoy it. Plus, you will recoup a lot of that back if it needs to be sold. I think it's actually cheaper to do it this way. Practically all of the major maintenance is done at once.

Look at how many people have been posting about blown engines. Quick way to lose $10k+!

Jake told me dont call him back if 12 month wait and 40k scared me. Needless to say I didnt call him back.

FlatSix is not the only shop around.

But for a street build I thought Jakes call was, well Jake being Jake and out of line.

My points is asked anyone that bought a roller and didnt do the work themselves what the real costs are. Its alot more than most, if not all figured.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:48 PM
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40K$ - seriously?
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