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2019 Engine Rebuild Comparison RND/FSI/EBS/Vertex

 
Old 04-27-2019, 03:28 PM
  #16  
GH996
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Originally Posted by wildbilly32 View Post
Sorry I missed that you were starting with a 3.4, duh! You are correct the Street Performer would get you 3.6. Sorry for the confusion.
Just had my 1999 returned from FSI this week. When I decided to do an elective build, it was $2,000 more to go with the Track Performer over the Street Performer and bumped it to a 3.8

Last edited by GH996; 04-27-2019 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 04-27-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Byprodriver View Post
Simplify your decision by insisting on LN Nickies cylinder liners.
Yes, if cost is not a consideration, only considering the most expensive parts simplifies things.

EBS Racing gave me the choice of Nikasil plating, ductile iron sleeves for about a 10% increase in cost, or Nickies at about a 25% increase in total project cost. I included only the ductile iron option because that feels like the sweet spot for increased power, durability, and cost. But I should probably update the comparison with the other options.
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Old 04-27-2019, 04:18 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by GH996 View Post
Just had my 1999 returned from FSI this week. When I decided to do an elective build, it was $2,000 more to go with the Track Performer over the Street Performer and bumped me to a 3.8
I bet it is a blast to drive now. Congrats!

Last edited by wsrgklt; 04-27-2019 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 04-27-2019, 05:57 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by GH996 View Post
Just had my 1999 returned from FSI this week. When I decided to do an elective build, it was $2,000 more to go with the Track Performer over the Street Performer and bumped me to a 3.8
That's going to be some fun once it's broken in!
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Old 04-27-2019, 07:41 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
I bet it is a blast to drive now. Congrats!
Originally Posted by wildbilly32 View Post
That's going to be some fun once it's broken in!
Thanks, and yes, really looking forward to the increased output and reliability going forward.
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Old 04-28-2019, 12:46 AM
  #21  
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I had assumed that an elective rebuild from FSI was MUCH higher.
I wonder if the cost for an M96/03 elective rebuild would be similar.
Thatís a VERY tempting price!
Waiting 12 months for an elective rebuild would be much easier than a failed engine rebuild.
I thought about requesting a quote but didnít want to waste Jakeís time until I was closer to being ready.
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:51 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by TexSquirrel View Post
I had assumed that an elective rebuild from FSI was MUCH higher.
I wonder if the cost for an M96/03 elective rebuild would be similar.
Thatís a VERY tempting price!
Waiting 12 months for an elective rebuild would be much easier than a failed engine rebuild.
I thought about requesting a quote but didnít want to waste Jakeís time until I was closer to being ready.
Same cost.(don't ask me how I know...)
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Old 04-28-2019, 09:17 AM
  #23  
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The difference here is pretty small compared to the risk of future issues, in my opinion. This is one time, Iíd be careful about trying to save money.
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Old 04-28-2019, 09:33 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by AnthonyGS View Post
The difference here is pretty small compared to the risk of future issues, in my opinion. This is one time, Iíd be careful about trying to save money.
True this...
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Old 04-28-2019, 01:11 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
Yes, if cost is not a consideration, only considering the most expensive parts simplifies things.

EBS Racing gave me the choice of Nikasil plating, ductile iron sleeves for about a 10% increase in cost, or Nickies at about a 25% increase in total project cost. I included only the ductile iron option because that feels like the sweet spot for increased power, durability, and cost. But I should probably update the comparison with the other options.
Also consider the different expansion rates of steel vs. aluminum inside a aluminum case.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:45 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
dporto A few months ago I was the "uninitiated" - new to Porsche, facing an extremely difficult and expensive decision, and getting differing advice from forums and shops I talked to. In all, I've talked to 6 independent Porsche specialist shops, two of which directed me to EBS Racing for the rebuild as a quality cost-effective builder, and I found a few builders online on my own.

One of the things everyone on the forums says to look out for is how many parts are actually replaced in a build. This spreadsheet initially, and still mostly, is meant to compare the builds in that dimension, especially because both RND and FSI make that a top selling-point in their sales materials. And with good reason - it looks like they probably do replace a lot more stuff than other builders. However, the parts list from EBS Racing compares quite favorably.

The type of parts, like sleeves and IMS bearings, are definitely a factor and that's why they're noted on the spreadsheet (check the comments on each cell for IMS bearing). Just like me, anyone who is considering a rebuild is going to have to weigh how much value they put in using the more expensive parts. I am aware that would be the most contentious part of this thread. However, I haven't seen anyone else even attempt to put together a methodical comparison of the options. If I had this spreadsheet at the start of my process, I still would have done a lot of homework, but this would have saved me a lot of time. I'm hoping it might do the same for someone else.
As I said in my previous post, I commend your effort. I understand that you're trying to help out - and showing the various options available is definitely helpful - but I think trying to simplify (over-simplify?) the learning process is actually a disservice, in that it may cause some to just compare the superficial stuff and not dig in to what's really going on with some of these rebuilds. I won't belabor this any further, as I think I've laid out my case, and there are clearly plenty of others here that think what you're doing is cool! I do too, I just thought it was important to point out the potential pitfalls...
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:58 PM
  #27  
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Should ad the Porsche short block exchange also...
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:27 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by 808Bill View Post
Should ad the Porsche short block exchange also...
I can't find anyone who even wants to give me an estimate on swapping out a shortblock. Consensus seems to be that it costs about the same as a rebuild and leaves you with worn out heads and a block that's still susceptible to bore scoring and d-chunking down the line. Plus, no warranty on the engine.

Quote from a high-end indy shop in Chicago:
"Yeah, it's not a good option. The labor cost would increase substantially, as these motors require a lot of attention to detail. not to mention the cost of new chains, guides, head gaskets, etc. I think the cost would probably be the same, if not more, to just have the motor rebuilt as a whole. Also, consider that rebuilding the motor as a whole would most likely be backed by a warranty."

Quote from Charles at LN on another thread here:
"It's damn near criminal to take the heads off an engine and reuse all these used parts on a new shortblock. Wasted labor and a recipe for disaster. The heads always need rebuilding and there are lots of other pieces that need to be changed that aren't included in the shortblock. Just saying."
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:35 AM
  #29  
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You need to understand the comments are correct about a factory shortblock. There are lots of things that still need to be checked and likely replaced. It is a viable option though. If you want a stock power engine that can go another 100k if you take care of ancillaries it is an option. Iíve considered getting a 3.4 shortblock just to have handy in case my 3.4 or 3.2 ever has issues.
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:51 AM
  #30  
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Excellent comparisons and (mostly) comments.

FWIW, (1) the skill of the engine builder is extremely important (and hard to assess), (2) my builder offers the industry standard warranty (1 year/12K miles), but for an add'l. $2500 offers an extended warranty (3 yrs./36K miles)...old adage: you get what you pay for.

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