2019 Engine Rebuild Comparison RND/FSI/EBS/Vertex
04-27-2019, 03:28 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Just had my 1999 returned from FSI this week. When I decided to do an elective build, it was $2,000 more to go with the Track Performer over the Street Performer and bumped it to a 3.8
Last edited by GH996; 04-27-2019 at 07:35 PM.
04-27-2019, 03:32 PM
#17
Yes, if cost is not a consideration, only considering the most expensive parts simplifies things.
EBS Racing gave me the choice of Nikasil plating, ductile iron sleeves for about a 10% increase in cost, or Nickies at about a 25% increase in total project cost. I included only the ductile iron option because that feels like the sweet spot for increased power, durability, and cost. But I should probably update the comparison with the other options.
EBS Racing gave me the choice of Nikasil plating, ductile iron sleeves for about a 10% increase in cost, or Nickies at about a 25% increase in total project cost. I included only the ductile iron option because that feels like the sweet spot for increased power, durability, and cost. But I should probably update the comparison with the other options.
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RobertM525 (03-10-2022)
04-27-2019, 04:18 PM
#18
Just had my 1999 returned from FSI this week. When I decided to do an elective build, it was $2,000 more to go with the Track Performer over the Street Performer and bumped me to a 3.8
Last edited by wsrgklt; 04-27-2019 at 06:29 PM.
04-27-2019, 07:41 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
04-28-2019, 12:46 AM
#21
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I had assumed that an elective rebuild from FSI was MUCH higher.
I wonder if the cost for an M96/03 elective rebuild would be similar.
That’s a VERY tempting price!
Waiting 12 months for an elective rebuild would be much easier than a failed engine rebuild.
I thought about requesting a quote but didn’t want to waste Jake’s time until I was closer to being ready.
I wonder if the cost for an M96/03 elective rebuild would be similar.
That’s a VERY tempting price!
Waiting 12 months for an elective rebuild would be much easier than a failed engine rebuild.
I thought about requesting a quote but didn’t want to waste Jake’s time until I was closer to being ready.
04-28-2019, 08:51 AM
#22
I had assumed that an elective rebuild from FSI was MUCH higher.
I wonder if the cost for an M96/03 elective rebuild would be similar.
That’s a VERY tempting price!
Waiting 12 months for an elective rebuild would be much easier than a failed engine rebuild.
I thought about requesting a quote but didn’t want to waste Jake’s time until I was closer to being ready.
I wonder if the cost for an M96/03 elective rebuild would be similar.
That’s a VERY tempting price!
Waiting 12 months for an elective rebuild would be much easier than a failed engine rebuild.
I thought about requesting a quote but didn’t want to waste Jake’s time until I was closer to being ready.
04-28-2019, 09:17 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
The difference here is pretty small compared to the risk of future issues, in my opinion. This is one time, I’d be careful about trying to save money.
04-28-2019, 01:11 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Yes, if cost is not a consideration, only considering the most expensive parts simplifies things.
EBS Racing gave me the choice of Nikasil plating, ductile iron sleeves for about a 10% increase in cost, or Nickies at about a 25% increase in total project cost. I included only the ductile iron option because that feels like the sweet spot for increased power, durability, and cost. But I should probably update the comparison with the other options.
EBS Racing gave me the choice of Nikasil plating, ductile iron sleeves for about a 10% increase in cost, or Nickies at about a 25% increase in total project cost. I included only the ductile iron option because that feels like the sweet spot for increased power, durability, and cost. But I should probably update the comparison with the other options.
04-29-2019, 08:45 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
@dporto A few months ago I was the "uninitiated" - new to Porsche, facing an extremely difficult and expensive decision, and getting differing advice from forums and shops I talked to. In all, I've talked to 6 independent Porsche specialist shops, two of which directed me to EBS Racing for the rebuild as a quality cost-effective builder, and I found a few builders online on my own.
One of the things everyone on the forums says to look out for is how many parts are actually replaced in a build. This spreadsheet initially, and still mostly, is meant to compare the builds in that dimension, especially because both RND and FSI make that a top selling-point in their sales materials. And with good reason - it looks like they probably do replace a lot more stuff than other builders. However, the parts list from EBS Racing compares quite favorably.
The type of parts, like sleeves and IMS bearings, are definitely a factor and that's why they're noted on the spreadsheet (check the comments on each cell for IMS bearing). Just like me, anyone who is considering a rebuild is going to have to weigh how much value they put in using the more expensive parts. I am aware that would be the most contentious part of this thread. However, I haven't seen anyone else even attempt to put together a methodical comparison of the options. If I had this spreadsheet at the start of my process, I still would have done a lot of homework, but this would have saved me a lot of time. I'm hoping it might do the same for someone else.
One of the things everyone on the forums says to look out for is how many parts are actually replaced in a build. This spreadsheet initially, and still mostly, is meant to compare the builds in that dimension, especially because both RND and FSI make that a top selling-point in their sales materials. And with good reason - it looks like they probably do replace a lot more stuff than other builders. However, the parts list from EBS Racing compares quite favorably.
The type of parts, like sleeves and IMS bearings, are definitely a factor and that's why they're noted on the spreadsheet (check the comments on each cell for IMS bearing). Just like me, anyone who is considering a rebuild is going to have to weigh how much value they put in using the more expensive parts. I am aware that would be the most contentious part of this thread. However, I haven't seen anyone else even attempt to put together a methodical comparison of the options. If I had this spreadsheet at the start of my process, I still would have done a lot of homework, but this would have saved me a lot of time. I'm hoping it might do the same for someone else.
04-29-2019, 12:58 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Should ad the Porsche short block exchange also...
04-30-2019, 10:27 AM
#28
I can't find anyone who even wants to give me an estimate on swapping out a shortblock. Consensus seems to be that it costs about the same as a rebuild and leaves you with worn out heads and a block that's still susceptible to bore scoring and d-chunking down the line. Plus, no warranty on the engine.
Quote from a high-end indy shop in Chicago:
"Yeah, it's not a good option. The labor cost would increase substantially, as these motors require a lot of attention to detail. not to mention the cost of new chains, guides, head gaskets, etc. I think the cost would probably be the same, if not more, to just have the motor rebuilt as a whole. Also, consider that rebuilding the motor as a whole would most likely be backed by a warranty."
Quote from Charles at LN on another thread here:
"It's damn near criminal to take the heads off an engine and reuse all these used parts on a new shortblock. Wasted labor and a recipe for disaster. The heads always need rebuilding and there are lots of other pieces that need to be changed that aren't included in the shortblock. Just saying."
Quote from a high-end indy shop in Chicago:
"Yeah, it's not a good option. The labor cost would increase substantially, as these motors require a lot of attention to detail. not to mention the cost of new chains, guides, head gaskets, etc. I think the cost would probably be the same, if not more, to just have the motor rebuilt as a whole. Also, consider that rebuilding the motor as a whole would most likely be backed by a warranty."
Quote from Charles at LN on another thread here:
"It's damn near criminal to take the heads off an engine and reuse all these used parts on a new shortblock. Wasted labor and a recipe for disaster. The heads always need rebuilding and there are lots of other pieces that need to be changed that aren't included in the shortblock. Just saying."
04-30-2019, 10:35 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
You need to understand the comments are correct about a factory shortblock. There are lots of things that still need to be checked and likely replaced. It is a viable option though. If you want a stock power engine that can go another 100k if you take care of ancillaries it is an option. I’ve considered getting a 3.4 shortblock just to have handy in case my 3.4 or 3.2 ever has issues.
04-30-2019, 10:51 AM
#30
My 2cents
Excellent comparisons and (mostly) comments.
FWIW, (1) the skill of the engine builder is extremely important (and hard to assess), (2) my builder offers the industry standard warranty (1 year/12K miles), but for an add'l. $2500 offers an extended warranty (3 yrs./36K miles)...old adage: you get what you pay for.
relinuca
Porsches Forever, or until the checking account is empty.
FWIW, (1) the skill of the engine builder is extremely important (and hard to assess), (2) my builder offers the industry standard warranty (1 year/12K miles), but for an add'l. $2500 offers an extended warranty (3 yrs./36K miles)...old adage: you get what you pay for.
relinuca
Porsches Forever, or until the checking account is empty.