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True to form, I was out at Sebring this past weekend in the 996 with my buddy in his GT350. He drove all weekend with his fancy traction control on and still looped it in T5 and almost balled the thing up.
True to form, I was out at Sebring this past weekend in the 996 with my buddy in his GT350. He drove all weekend with his fancy traction control on and still looped it in T5 and almost balled the thing up.
Am I mistaken, or does the 220, 222, 224 option codes on the 996 define 'traction control'? Because, that's what I had on my 996, basically PSM before there was PSM. Along with ABS, I would think all the similar drivers aids on the 996 that are on the GT350, but maybe a generation more primitive? Should we all go back to no driver aids? No PSM, TC, ABS, LSD, active suspension, etc? Lets go old school, and do live axle, drum brakes, heck - non synchro trans.
Different strokes, some do not prefer the latest in computer aided driving. I have been doing track events and instructing for about 15 years and certainly my preference is not the newest computer aided driving gadgets. If you can defeat these systems, it's OK. But there is a reason some people hold the 996 GT3/GT2 near and dear. I enjoyed my GT3 on track far more than a modified 996 Turbo, even though the latter is faster, as an example.
Originally Posted by docmirror
Am I mistaken, or does the 220, 222, 224 option codes on the 996 define 'traction control'? Because, that's what I had on my 996, basically PSM before there was PSM. Along with ABS, I would think all the similar drivers aids on the 996 that are on the GT350, but maybe a generation more primitive? Should we all go back to no driver aids? No PSM, TC, ABS, LSD, active suspension, etc? Lets go old school, and do live axle, drum brakes, heck - non synchro trans.
Funny my T5 survival guide is slide full throttle all the way to the track-out curbing
I do find the pavement transition to be tricky in T5; that patch and dip on the inside loves to give the front of the car grip (and make the back end slide out) if you enter wrong. Which I do a lot. One of the many places I think I could experiment with a different approach to smooth it out.
Am I mistaken, or does the 220, 222, 224 option codes on the 996 define 'traction control'? Because, that's what I had on my 996, basically PSM before there was PSM. Along with ABS, I would think all the similar drivers aids on the 996 that are on the GT350, but maybe a generation more primitive? Should we all go back to no driver aids? No PSM, TC, ABS, LSD, active suspension, etc? Lets go old school, and do live axle, drum brakes, heck - non synchro trans.
lolz
Not sure what 222 and 224 are off the top of my head, but 220 is just the LSD (weak and pathetic as the stock one is).
I would evaluate your statement about the driver aids on the 996 versus the GT350 to be, I don't want to say inaccurate, but underwhelming maybe. 2000+ 996, when equipped with PSM, has e-throttle that the car can take away from you when it detects wheelspin or some other situation it doesn't want you applying more throttle. It can brake individual wheels to help straighten the car out. There's ABS. The PSM, in my experience, CANNOT be left on when driving on track at any pace above 5/10ths without drastically overheating the rear brakes, as the car anticipates slides during track-out corner exit and modulates the rear to keep the car straight. So pretty much everyone is driving with it off. The car will let you slide with reckless abandon and make no attempt to straighten the car (with the one caveat being that if you are in a high-g situation AND apply the brakes, the PSM will remain active ONLY while the brake pedal is depressed, in order to help straighten the car out).
The GT350 is an entirely different animal. It has five different modes, each one with a different throttle map and different levels of intervention from stability control as well as traction control. "OFF" isn't one of the readily-selectable modes. So GT350s are driven on track in "track mode," which means that the drivers are mashing the throttle to 100% at every apex and the car can doing all of the throttle modulation for them. Magna-ride with a DSC sport controller can actually modify the damping on individual corners to give the car a sort of souped-up chassis control that prevents diving, squatting, etc etc. The speed of the steering rack is varied in each mode.
The 996 (the GT3 especially) is a car that you control. The GT350 is a car that you give orders to and it executes.
Regarding your second question- if your goal is to be in a car (coincidentally in the seat with the steering wheel) when a fast lap time occurs, then no. We need all of those things. We need magna-ride and active aero and all that bull**** so that the car/driver team gets a good time. But if your goal (like mine) is to become a faster driver, then yeah maybe don't go all the way to drum brakes, but yes get rid of PSM, stability control, active suspension, active steering, rear-wheel steering. I'd say ABS is a safety feature that I want, but I have done plenty of laps in cars without it and even getting rid of ABS teaches you a lot.
Putting an inexperienced driver on Hoosiers makes their lap times faster, but inhibits their learning and ultimately makes them more dangerous to share the track with. I feel the same way about the GT350. I'm sure it's totally brilliant in the hands of someone who learned on an old-school car. But sadly it's just an ego-pumper for most people who buy them.
Not sure what 222 and 224 are off the top of my head, but 220 is just the LSD (weak and pathetic as the stock one is).
I would evaluate your statement about the driver aids on the 996 versus the GT350 to be, I don't want to say inaccurate, but underwhelming maybe. 2000+ 996, .
So - like I said, it's the prev generation of driver aids. You should investigate the 222 and 224 options. Really, might be useful.
As for the five modes on the GT350, one of them is a snow mode. Doubt that will be helpful on the track, but heck - to each his/her own? The other four modes are normal, drag, and then finally two settings for track. Harsh, and harsher. OK, I got it. Whole different animal. Color me surprised that driver aids have advanced in 18-ish years. Maybe even 2 generations. Cool
One of my buds has a gt350 I've driven a few times at autox and on the go kart track- Pretty outstanding for a mustang, and very fast once you get used to it. The things I always notice right away is the steering feel (lack thereof) and delayed throttle response. They are very spacious inside, and fun to drive. Best mustang ever?
It is significantly faster than a 996 in every way, except maybe a tight slow slalom LOL
So I rented the Shelby today. Gotta say, it really makes me appreciate just how good my 996 is.... Sure the GT350 is insanely fast above 5k rpm, but all those reviewers on YouTube throwing out words like “finesse” and “European feel” are smoking something wacky. The GT350 feels huge, like driving a small truck with a sport suspension. I just couldn’t get comfortable in it. The sports Recaros have your butt sitting way low and knees upward. I’ve decided I don’t like Alcantara. Steering wheel feels like a bath mat. And speaking of steering, it felt hugely artificial. I couldn’t feel any difference between normal, sport and comfort steering. The center console/arm rest sits too high for me and interferes with shifting. Like I need to stick my elbow out chicken wing style to get a decent shift action. The shifter linkage itself is fine but the interior ergonomics are just way off, at least for me. Looking out over the long hood is a little disconcerting. There’s just nothing about the car that says “nimble”. Getting on it hard in the canyons, the car was a handful. Didn’t feel like the back end squatted and dug in at all. You really have to mandandle the GT350 to try to tame it. Still glad I rented it but it just solidified in my mind how good the 911 is.
I think if you drove any other generation Mustang back to back with the new one, you’d understand what people are talking about when they say it feels European. Nimble? If anyone says that about a car with that footprint and that weighs that much, I have to assume they’ve never driven anything nimble. Regardless, thank you for the review (I’ve been looking forward to it all week). I think the information in this thread from the perspectives of the people who posted, especially the OP and those with serious track experience, is going to be very useful for a lot of people.
I used to own an 95 GT. That honestly felt lighter than the GT350. The Shelby gives off some vibes through the clutch and shifter above 4K. The motor sounds eerily similar to a Subaru boxer 4 when you have the exhaust in normal mode. May have to do with the flat plane crank firing order. The Shelby’s clutch was so over assisted I actually thought mine was busted when I jumped back in the 996. But the light clutch in the Shelby is not good. It’s way too light and has a helper spring that you can feel is not progressive on take up. It’s very difficult to do anything smoothly in the Shelby.
The one standout was the Brembo brakes. Even just a light tap on the pedal results in them grabbing HARD. Maybe it’s suited to track work, but it’s no good on the street. It’s docile at low revs but It’s violently fast at WOT. Overkill for canyons. The 996 is a dream to drive by comparison. The steering really is sublime.
I used to own an 95 GT. That honestly felt lighter than the GT350. The Shelby gives off some vibes through the clutch and shifter above 4K. The motor sounds eerily similar to a Subaru boxer 4 when you have the exhaust in normal mode. May have to do with the flat plane crank firing order. The Shelby’s clutch was so over assisted I actually thought mine was busted when I jumped back in the 996. But the light clutch in the Shelby is not good. It’s way too light and has a helper spring that you can feel is not progressive on take up. It’s very difficult to do anything smoothly in the Shelby.
The one standout was the Brembo brakes. Even just a light tap on the pedal results in them grabbing HARD. Maybe it’s suited to track work, but it’s no good on the street. It’s docile at low revs but It’s violently fast at WOT. Overkill for canyons. The 996 is a dream to drive by comparison. The steering really is sublime.
Okay so you definitely have some frame of reference for sure. I had an ‘01 Bullitt and, as much as I wanted to love that car, it was just a lowered pickup truck at best. The new Mustang GT felt like a BMW by comparison to me. But, compared to my actual BMW, it wasn’t really in the same league. I really wanted this GT350 to finally be the Mustang I could get excited about owning, but I don’t think that will ever happen. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to get by with a 911. How terrible for me!
12-18-2018, 10:08 AM
