It may be time... sigh. A question on pricing a 99 996 Cab roller...
06-01-2018, 11:24 AM
#16
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Thanks all for the feedback and good wishes. Understood that it is a bit of a risk for someone out of the blue, records or not. My only hope on that front is that for a local-ish sale there would be some familiarity and weight given to the wrenches that have done the work on it these past several years, and their reputation in local PCA/track circles on these cars. But only a really faint hope, that, and still no guarantee of anything, I know.
06-01-2018, 11:50 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
I just don't see anyone taking a chance on anything more than your typical roller $$
Have you reached out to FSI?
Have you reached out to FSI?
06-01-2018, 02:27 PM
#18
Former Vendor
Here at Flat 6 we just refer broken cars to them, we stay far, far away from dealing with used vehicle sales or purchasing.
Based on what we've read here, I'd say an underlying issue with this one existed, and what has been experienced is collateral damage. Were the fuel injectors replaced when the engine was built?
The mass air flow sensor code can make the engine run rich, and create these issues of oil consumption. Any engine that runs rich WILL consume oil, and it can be in heavy amounts. #6 can see an issue easier than the other cylinders due to the intake manifold characteristics, and the fact that this cylinder has a tendency to always run more fuel rich than the other cylinders.
I read your PDF of the details that the shop did... Let me guess, the shop saw oil dripping from the exhaust bolts on the cylinder heads, removed the exhaust and then assumed that the cylinder heads had an issue with valve/ stem seals. Right? Then they pulled the head off, and didn't find anything wrong with it.
If so, this screams inexperience with these specific engines loudly. The first thing we would have done would have been much different than this. I see this mistake all the time with stock M96 engines that are believed to have a mechanical issue creating oil consumption, and people always "fall for" seeing oil around the exhaust valve guides, believing that the valve guides, or stem seals are creating this issue. In 100% of the cases we have seen here, this has NEVER been the case. Jake has many documented cases of this, some with exceptional video that he has collected for his classes.
06-01-2018, 02:37 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Contact Stonegate Auto Sales stonegatautosales@gmail.com
Here at Flat 6 we just refer broken cars to them, we stay far, far away from dealing with used vehicle sales or purchasing.
Based on what we've read here, I'd say an underlying issue with this one existed, and what has been experienced is collateral damage. Were the fuel injectors replaced when the engine was built?
The mass air flow sensor code can make the engine run rich, and create these issues of oil consumption. Any engine that runs rich WILL consume oil, and it can be in heavy amounts.
Let me guess, the shop saw oil dripping from the exhaust bolts on the cylinder heads, removed the exhaust and then assumed that the cylinder heads had an issue with valve/ stem seals. Right? Then they pulled the head off, and didn't find anything wrong with it.
If so, this screams inexperience with these specific engines loudly. The first thing we would have done would have been much different than this. I see this mistake all the time with stock M96 engines that are believed to have a mechanical issue creating oil consumption, and people always "fall for" seeing oil around the exhaust valve guides, believing that the valve guides, or stem seals are creating this issue. In 100% of the cases we have seen here, this has NEVER been the case. Jake has many documented cases of this, some with exceptional video that he has collected for his classes.
Here at Flat 6 we just refer broken cars to them, we stay far, far away from dealing with used vehicle sales or purchasing.
Based on what we've read here, I'd say an underlying issue with this one existed, and what has been experienced is collateral damage. Were the fuel injectors replaced when the engine was built?
The mass air flow sensor code can make the engine run rich, and create these issues of oil consumption. Any engine that runs rich WILL consume oil, and it can be in heavy amounts.
Let me guess, the shop saw oil dripping from the exhaust bolts on the cylinder heads, removed the exhaust and then assumed that the cylinder heads had an issue with valve/ stem seals. Right? Then they pulled the head off, and didn't find anything wrong with it.
If so, this screams inexperience with these specific engines loudly. The first thing we would have done would have been much different than this. I see this mistake all the time with stock M96 engines that are believed to have a mechanical issue creating oil consumption, and people always "fall for" seeing oil around the exhaust valve guides, believing that the valve guides, or stem seals are creating this issue. In 100% of the cases we have seen here, this has NEVER been the case. Jake has many documented cases of this, some with exceptional video that he has collected for his classes.
06-01-2018, 02:42 PM
#20
Former Vendor
Thanks... Unfortunately we can't offer any assistance more than the limited posts we can make here from time to time. Offering trouble shooting and diagnostics via phone, or email doesn't make our payroll each week. As authorities we are always contacted, but unless someone is willing to make the investment to ship us their Porsche, we have no way to benefit from offering assistance.
Already today we've had 7 requests for "help", none of which have come from our paying customers. We are busier than ever, and often all 3 of our lines are lit up, with only one of those being from someone who wants more than info about a car they want to buy, or an issue that another shop cannot repair.
Already today we've had 7 requests for "help", none of which have come from our paying customers. We are busier than ever, and often all 3 of our lines are lit up, with only one of those being from someone who wants more than info about a car they want to buy, or an issue that another shop cannot repair.
06-01-2018, 02:49 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
You guys are worth your weight in GOLD, I understand time is money and will gladly pay for your expertise!
Jake has already offered so much to this community and others, how could one not want to give back to FSI for a change? This post is proof of that...Awesome!
Jake has already offered so much to this community and others, how could one not want to give back to FSI for a change? This post is proof of that...Awesome!
06-01-2018, 03:02 PM
#22
Former Vendor
We do have some people offer to pay us for technical assistance. The problem is that everyone here that can offer this needs to have their hands inside an engine at all times. For the amount of money that we can fairly charge for a phone consultation it’s taking away critical time from completion of our daily objectives.
Jake used to offer technical consults until he got tired of people saying “that’s an outrageous price”. The final straw was when someone misconstrued what he was told during a chat, then had his local shop perform work incorrectly. He tried to blame Jake... Let’s just say that didn’t work out too well, and resulted in a policy here where we do not offer paid consultation any further.
06-01-2018, 03:51 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thank you!
We do have some people offer to pay us for technical assistance. The problem is that everyone here that can offer this needs to have their hands inside an engine at all times. For the amount of money that we can fairly charge for a phone consultation it’s taking away critical time from completion of our daily objectives.
Jake used to offer technical consults until he got tired of people saying “that’s an outrageous price”. The final straw was when someone misconstrued what he was told during a chat, then had his local shop perform work incorrectly. He tried to blame Jake... Let’s just say that didn’t work out too well, and resulted in a policy here where we do not offer paid consultation any further.
The reason I'm asking is I have a good friend who rebuilt his own 3.4 using FSI/LN developed parts Ie 3.8 Nikies,Pistons, H-beam rods, bearings, IMS, bought all the upgraded parts available, heads rebuilt by the same head shop, ect. and has had oil consumption since day one (30K miles), and yes even oil driping from the valve guides. And now has a tick that sounds like a piston slap..
He had asked me about the oil consumption and I told him I thought the only way oil could be driping from the guides is that the seals were left off by someone reassembling the heads.With oil consumption being about 1qt/1000 miles and otherwise engine performing well he just drove it 30k miles...Having had a double lung transplant he is not phisically able to do another dissasemble/reassemble of the engine..and it's probably too late to correct this now, but it would be nice to know what was the cause of this for others on here and for future reference..
EDIT:: never mind..I read between the lines and can tell the root cause is "rich" running... My friend DID have a FVD tune done to his car, and some dyno tuning right after the build....guess they got the "TUNE" wrong even though no codes or running problems...It's a real shame cause he spared no expense in his build..
06-01-2018, 04:39 PM
#24
Former Vendor
So after reading these posts I assume you are not going to reveal the secret fix for oil consumption/driping from the valve guides?
The reason I'm asking is I have a good friend who rebuilt his own 3.4 using FSI/LN developed parts Ie 3.8 Nikies,Pistons, H-beam rods, bearings, IMS, bought all the upgraded parts available, heads rebuilt by the same head shop, ect. and has had oil consumption since day one (30K miles), and yes even oil driping from the valve guides. And now has a tick that sounds like a piston slap..
He had asked me about the oil consumption and I told him I thought the only way oil could be driping from the guides is that the seals were left off by someone reassembling the heads.With oil consumption being about 1qt/1000 miles and otherwise engine performing well he just drove it 30k miles...Having had a double lung transplant he is not phisically able to do another dissasemble/reassemble of the engine..and it's probably too late to correct this now, but it would be nice to know what was the cause of this for others on here and for future reference..
EDIT:: never mind..I read between the lines and can tell the root cause is "rich" running... My friend DID have a FVD tune done to his car, and some dyno tuning right after the build....guess they got the "TUNE" wrong even though no codes or running problems...It's a real shame cause he spared no expense in his build..
The reason I'm asking is I have a good friend who rebuilt his own 3.4 using FSI/LN developed parts Ie 3.8 Nikies,Pistons, H-beam rods, bearings, IMS, bought all the upgraded parts available, heads rebuilt by the same head shop, ect. and has had oil consumption since day one (30K miles), and yes even oil driping from the valve guides. And now has a tick that sounds like a piston slap..
He had asked me about the oil consumption and I told him I thought the only way oil could be driping from the guides is that the seals were left off by someone reassembling the heads.With oil consumption being about 1qt/1000 miles and otherwise engine performing well he just drove it 30k miles...Having had a double lung transplant he is not phisically able to do another dissasemble/reassemble of the engine..and it's probably too late to correct this now, but it would be nice to know what was the cause of this for others on here and for future reference..
EDIT:: never mind..I read between the lines and can tell the root cause is "rich" running... My friend DID have a FVD tune done to his car, and some dyno tuning right after the build....guess they got the "TUNE" wrong even though no codes or running problems...It's a real shame cause he spared no expense in his build..
This issue is 100% created by an over- rich running condition, the fuel creates these problems. We see this misdiagnosed all the time, and it often will lead to mechanical compromise. The issue isn't valve guides, or seals- never has been. The oil is coming from the combustion chambers, and the engine starts to act like a 2 stroke. This is especially true with some engine oils, and driving styles.
Modern fuels are killing these fuel injectors, and have been for years. The correlation between scored bores on OE engines is also heavily impacted by over- fueling, and injectors that bleed down, and / or have a poor spray pattern. Those in colder climates use a "winter blend fuel" that even makes the issue worse. It took years to connect these dots and figure this out for certain. Injector Cleaning does no good, they are not dirty- they are compromised internally.
Our engines have received 100% new fuel injectors for years, so it took seeing these issues with stock & other people's engines to figure it out.
Any "tune" can also make the engine run rich, so can some exhaust systems,and intake systems.
YES, we have been able to catch engines with these issues early on, and swap the injectors, or solve the enrichment issue via MAF/ tune, etc and solve the consumption problems within 2K miles, or so.
06-01-2018, 04:42 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Again, a wealth of knowledge in less then an hour...
06-01-2018, 05:17 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Did this friend replace the fuel injectors when the engine was built?
This issue is 100% created by an over- rich running condition, the fuel creates these problems. We see this misdiagnosed all the time, and it often will lead to mechanical compromise. The issue isn't valve guides, or seals- never has been. The oil is coming from the combustion chambers, and the engine starts to act like a 2 stroke. This is especially true with some engine oils, and driving styles.
Modern fuels are killing these fuel injectors, and have been for years. The correlation between scored bores on OE engines is also heavily impacted by over- fueling, and injectors that bleed down, and / or have a poor spray pattern. Those in colder climates use a "winter blend fuel" that even makes the issue worse. It took years to connect these dots and figure this out for certain. Injector Cleaning does no good, they are not dirty- they are compromised internally.
Our engines have received 100% new fuel injectors for years, so it took seeing these issues with stock & other people's engines to figure it out.
Any "tune" can also make the engine run rich, so can some exhaust systems,and intake systems.
YES, we have been able to catch engines with these issues early on, and swap the injectors, or solve the enrichment issue via MAF/ tune, etc and solve the consumption problems within 2K miles, or so.
This issue is 100% created by an over- rich running condition, the fuel creates these problems. We see this misdiagnosed all the time, and it often will lead to mechanical compromise. The issue isn't valve guides, or seals- never has been. The oil is coming from the combustion chambers, and the engine starts to act like a 2 stroke. This is especially true with some engine oils, and driving styles.
Modern fuels are killing these fuel injectors, and have been for years. The correlation between scored bores on OE engines is also heavily impacted by over- fueling, and injectors that bleed down, and / or have a poor spray pattern. Those in colder climates use a "winter blend fuel" that even makes the issue worse. It took years to connect these dots and figure this out for certain. Injector Cleaning does no good, they are not dirty- they are compromised internally.
Our engines have received 100% new fuel injectors for years, so it took seeing these issues with stock & other people's engines to figure it out.
Any "tune" can also make the engine run rich, so can some exhaust systems,and intake systems.
YES, we have been able to catch engines with these issues early on, and swap the injectors, or solve the enrichment issue via MAF/ tune, etc and solve the consumption problems within 2K miles, or so.
He put his trust in the dyno operator who sent the dyno info/ A/F data info to FVD tuner to have them adjust the tune...and still was over-fueling I guess..
06-01-2018, 05:46 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
I'm a little confused here. Is the oil consumption a result of damaged cylinders from cylinder wash? Or, will it actually cause oil consumption from oil dilution due to overfueling? Or is this cause and result, with a small window to resolve the issue before the damage occurs?
Last edited by moburki; 06-01-2018 at 05:47 PM. Reason: punctuation
06-01-2018, 06:53 PM
#28
Former Vendor
I
Can be from either, or many other underlying issues as well. Damaged cylinders/ pistons and etc are being created by fuel wash, which is the current topic of this thread.
This can happen as well, but often we see low fuel intrusion in the oil with these issues than one would expect. Its easier for the fuel? oil to mix in the combustion chamber and burn, rather than make it past the rings. This is the two stroke syndrome that some oils can create. Most of the time these are oils that include ester in their composition. It is possible to have enough excess fuel in the oil to cut the oil viscosity, and that will show up in UOA as fuel intrusion, as well as reduced viscosity.
Often these are not caught, because people start treating symptoms, and while trying to figure out the issue, the engine is damaged internally.
One symptom of original engines having bore scoring has always been one tailpipe being more sooty than the other. Guess what, that soot isn't oil, it's fuel. If an engine can be caught when the sooty tailpipe or bumper is first noticed, the chances of being able to correct the over- fueling condition leading to consumption is greatest.
We've only been able to save a few engines that had this issue. New engines going together with old injectors are the main issue, as they have near zero tolerance for over-enrichment.
None of what is written here is conventional wisdom. You won't read this anywhere, and save your Google searches.
__________________
'm a little confused here. Is the oil consumption a result of damaged cylinders from cylinder wash?
Or, will it actually cause oil consumption from oil dilution due to overfueling?
Or is this cause and result, with a small window to resolve the issue before the damage occurs?
One symptom of original engines having bore scoring has always been one tailpipe being more sooty than the other. Guess what, that soot isn't oil, it's fuel. If an engine can be caught when the sooty tailpipe or bumper is first noticed, the chances of being able to correct the over- fueling condition leading to consumption is greatest.
We've only been able to save a few engines that had this issue. New engines going together with old injectors are the main issue, as they have near zero tolerance for over-enrichment.
None of what is written here is conventional wisdom. You won't read this anywhere, and save your Google searches.
__________________
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06-01-2018, 07:15 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
This thread needs to be a sticky!
06-01-2018, 08:59 PM
#30
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I had to read all of that twice. Thanks a ton for the insights.
In thinking about it (and I’ll have to doublecheck later) I believe the injectors may have been cleaned and not replaced. That said, on what was a massive bill at the time, the difference between new injectors and cleaning the old couldn’t possibly have been more than a relative rounding difference ($100 or two, max?), so it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense not to have replaced them at the time. And I surely wasn’t asking about smaller costs as it went along. So very odd.
In thinking about it (and I’ll have to doublecheck later) I believe the injectors may have been cleaned and not replaced. That said, on what was a massive bill at the time, the difference between new injectors and cleaning the old couldn’t possibly have been more than a relative rounding difference ($100 or two, max?), so it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense not to have replaced them at the time. And I surely wasn’t asking about smaller costs as it went along. So very odd.