Flat6 Innovations

Rennlisters,
One of our purchasers from a couple of years ago passed away just a few months after receiving his car back from us. His family decided to sell the car, and it is currently listed on Bring a Trailer for auction through a dealer local to us.
Its fitted with our 3.8 Stage II Track Performer engine, and has only seen a couple thousand miles, since completion.
It should be interesting to see what this one goes for.
Here's a link to the auction:
​​​​​​https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...he-carrera-c4/

808Bill

Thanks for the heads up!

Blue Chip

Wow. This will actually give me something of an idea on my car now that it's had it's 3.8 transplant.... not that I'm getting rid of it.... EVER.

AWDGuy

^^doesn't yours put down 50whp more than this one?

not trying to start another dyno war thread...but iirc, your had a lot more power? Or am I think of something completely different?

strathconaman

With the 15% rule (of HP loss through an AWD system) this makes this FSI 3.8 put out 326 at the crank...which is a little underwhelming for a $28K investment.

Flat6 Innovations

This engine is still fitted with 100% stock exhaust, stock catalytic converters, and stock throttle body. It was not fully optimized at completion, as the owner planned to add the other items before he started tracking the car.

That's because there's no 15% rule. This is a tiptronic, the rule is more around 24%. This is based from direct comparisons from our engine dyno, to install into the car, and then onto the chassis dyno. We have performed this comparison a few hundred times at this point, between manuals, and tiptronics, between our two engine dynos, and the chassis dyno.

If this engine were fitted in a manual, it would net around 300 RWHP, even with the 100% stock ancillaries.

No owner of a tiptronic vehicle is concerned with peak power. The engine combination that we use for a tiptronic application is completely different for the tiptronic application, as there are concerns that have to be addressed that a manual does not have.

This owner didn't care about net power; he bought the engine so it would resist the failure that he had already experienced first hand. The added power was icing on the cake, and was a secondary reason for the purchase, not the primary.

Fully optimized with our intake, exhaust, X- pipe, catalytic converters, coils, and etc this one would have made an additional 21-30HP, if it follows the traits of those that have come before it.

@Bluechip:
Actually, it won't at all. Your car isn't a tiptronic cabriolet, is it? The buyer for this car will be dramatically different than the purchaser of a manual, 6 speed coupe. It will be a complete apples to grapefruit comparison.

AWDGuy

This is the conversation i was hoping to avoid.

I was thinking more like slakers old engine was a track performer III or something. I swear I read somewhere that car was putting down 350whp. Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Flat6 Innovations

Throw the displacement aside.. These two engines have a completely different internal combination, and thats directly attributed to the tiptronic transaxle optimization.

Slakker also had a fully optimized intake, and exhaust system. The BAT car is 100% stock in those regards.

To truly judge one of these engines one must average the HP and torque over a 5,000 RPM range. People that look directly at peak output are looking at a 250RPM snapshot of the engine's performance, and they are totally missing the most important portion of the engine's power band/ output. With a tiptronic we are ONLY concerned with torque.

Coopduc

For street use, just compare the area under the torque curves for the best comparison of the two engines. I always consider this as more relevant, regardless of the trans used.

Flat6 Innovations

Thats true.. But only applicable if the engine combination wasn't also altered to optimize the operation, and gearing of the tiptronic. In this case, thats the case.

Blue Chip

Both valid points - thank you. And I have the same intake and exhaust that Slakker had - so that's something that I hadn't thought of either.

george_west

That being said, what could a potential buyer expect if their only purpose in buying this car was to transplant the engine it into a 6 speed manual car? Would it be noticeably different from a similar engine built for a 6mt?

strathconaman

The problem here is that there is no "before" and "after", and I would be after a metric-crap-tonne of mid range torque.

If FSI's number of 24% for the slushbox, then peak torque is ~330 at the crank...somewhere around 4500rpm (maybe? so hard to say with that chart), which is actually pretty good. Compare a 991 3.8 makes 325 at 5600 rpm.

AWDGuy

excuse my ignorance. 991 is the porsche 911 model from 2011 to ??

Blue Chip