2001 engine rebuild
07-19-2017 | 09:44 AM
#46
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,782
Likes: 8
07-19-2017 | 01:54 PM
#47
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 25
From: Los Angeles
I didn't have or do any of that. I had the machine shop clean everything and asked for thorough inspection of the cranshaft, rods, heads, bearing carrier case. I brought in all the old bearings also for them to inspect. .... The machine shop does all the Audi/Porsche dealer stuff and they've seen a few 996's come through.
I figured (and my engine building mentor)...using the right parts, we would be fine. if measurements are out of spec, what was I going to do anyways?
I figured (and my engine building mentor)...using the right parts, we would be fine. if measurements are out of spec, what was I going to do anyways?
Some of the big names in Porsche repair fail at M96 rebuilds. Some do the work in house, some sub it out - you'll never know how much or to who. You will never know what specs they use. And the consequences can be dire. The short version is that they failed - twice ! That was a very expensive, failed rebuild.
http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-r...ter-build.html
Last edited by Schnell Gelb; 07-19-2017 at 02:09 PM.
07-19-2017 | 02:04 PM
#48
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,968
Likes: 2,295
From: Cleveland Georgia
You WILL get exactly what you pay for.
The main issue I see comes from people that don;t even know how the engine operates, yet they try to "build" it. I have seen this in my classes, where I even allow competitors to attend (gives me a chance to size them up).
I once had a guy attend that was the "lead builder" for someone well- known. He didn't even know how to use the rear main seal installation tool. He also didn't understand the coolant flow path through the engine, or the oil system pathways, either.
To most everyone this is like pulling apart your bicycle when you are a kid... Take it apart, and just put it back together the way that it was. The issue is, if you don;pt know how it works, you'll never be effective.
The "racer" shops are the worst. They should stick to bolting on struts, building roll cages, and going around and around in circles wasting fuel, tires, and time.
The main issue I see comes from people that don;t even know how the engine operates, yet they try to "build" it. I have seen this in my classes, where I even allow competitors to attend (gives me a chance to size them up).
I once had a guy attend that was the "lead builder" for someone well- known. He didn't even know how to use the rear main seal installation tool. He also didn't understand the coolant flow path through the engine, or the oil system pathways, either.
To most everyone this is like pulling apart your bicycle when you are a kid... Take it apart, and just put it back together the way that it was. The issue is, if you don;pt know how it works, you'll never be effective.
The "racer" shops are the worst. They should stick to bolting on struts, building roll cages, and going around and around in circles wasting fuel, tires, and time.
07-19-2017 | 03:31 PM
#49
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,782
Likes: 8
The link below shows the risks of trusting the wrong rebuilder.
Some of the big names in Porsche repair fail at M96 rebuilds. Some do the work in house, some sub it out - you'll never know how much or to who. You will never know what specs they use. And the consequences can be dire. The short version is that they failed - twice ! That was a very expensive, failed rebuild.
http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-r...ter-build.html
Some of the big names in Porsche repair fail at M96 rebuilds. Some do the work in house, some sub it out - you'll never know how much or to who. You will never know what specs they use. And the consequences can be dire. The short version is that they failed - twice ! That was a very expensive, failed rebuild.
http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-r...ter-build.html
My mentor friend even told me he wasn't touching anything. He made me hammer the wrist clip pins in. He made me do the timing. I was the one with the parts & tools in my hands. he helped when second hands were needed (putting bearing carrier case inside, putting 2nd half case on, etc) and offered his advice when it was needed. He was the one to notice we missed dowels between the cases. I missed it, so im glad he was there, even thought we had to split the case for a 2nd time. It also helped (tremendously) that Jake and Charles always answered my questions within 24hours.
07-20-2017 | 10:31 AM
#50
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,983
Likes: 148
From: Montana
The unit comes complete with M97 IMSB. You can install it as it is, if you want to accept what the factory gives you, or you can fit an M97 version of the IMS Solution.
This is much more than a "business". The business part is the necessary evil for me. I hate business. I hate money. I
started this place because I wanted to build engines, and build them my way, and use my own damn parts to do it, with no one to answer to. I never intended for it to grow as much as it has, and I have to constantly keep it from growing more than it already has. I see people in this industry grow right out of their own business. They become successful, get sloppy, and they end up like all the other compromised people out there. Then.... It crashes. They lose focus, they fold up. Happens on a monthly basis.
What my point was is this:
Don't look at the price you pay for something and think there's a ton to be made from this. You will not know the costs, sacrifices, or BS involved until YOU make that part and YOU deal with that person who cannot be pleased. This isn;t like just having some store and selling people a loaf of bread. This stuff has to be developed, applied (for years before it is perfected, and respected) and constantly supported, and evolved. Then, in the case of distribution, pricing tiers have to be set up and everyone wants their part.
At the end of the day it has to be invented, developed, practically applied, tested, torn down, evaluated, measured, re- applied, and then after about 5 years it can be trusted. Then you have to pay some bastard at a magazine to advertise it for a few thousand per month, and fight with him wanting one for his own car for free. Then, after that you get to deal with clowns on forums that are talking about how good or bad it is, based off what some other clown said about it on some other forum, and neither of them have even touched the damn thing. They don;t own a tool box, and if they did, they wouldn't know how to open it- yet, they are experts.
The modern world, these opinions, and "social media" sucks. The majority of it is misinformation from pretenders and forumites. First hand information is disrespected, and isn't valued. It comes across as "that guy is trying to sell me something", when "that guy" is the only damn person out there that has actually experienced it.
Thats why I develop. When the project is done, I am done. I HATE selling anyone, anything. I have literally thrown things away or destroyed them to avoid selling them.
That said, you think these engines are expensive? My most expensive engines don't even fit Porsches... They fit old VWs, and the cheapest one is just as expensive as your M96 engine. My wait list for those engines is longer than the M96.
Most days I can say that I had more fun working in that old building with a dirt floor than I do today. Tonight I'm working on a 40 year old Swiss Military vehicle that hasn't ran in 5 years. Draining old gas from it, and being eaten alive by mosquitoes while I work on it in the yard, to keep the shop from smelling like dead gas. I get more satisfaction from this type of thing than anything else these days. Its real, its satisfying, and I don;t have to hear some screwed up opinion, or anyone whine about how their center cap isn't the way it was on their car before they shipped it... Or how someone's plastic ash tray "rusted" while we had the car. That one tops them all.
It makes me want to sell every Porsche I own!
Ok, rant off!
This is much more than a "business". The business part is the necessary evil for me. I hate business. I hate money. I
started this place because I wanted to build engines, and build them my way, and use my own damn parts to do it, with no one to answer to. I never intended for it to grow as much as it has, and I have to constantly keep it from growing more than it already has. I see people in this industry grow right out of their own business. They become successful, get sloppy, and they end up like all the other compromised people out there. Then.... It crashes. They lose focus, they fold up. Happens on a monthly basis.
What my point was is this:
Don't look at the price you pay for something and think there's a ton to be made from this. You will not know the costs, sacrifices, or BS involved until YOU make that part and YOU deal with that person who cannot be pleased. This isn;t like just having some store and selling people a loaf of bread. This stuff has to be developed, applied (for years before it is perfected, and respected) and constantly supported, and evolved. Then, in the case of distribution, pricing tiers have to be set up and everyone wants their part.
At the end of the day it has to be invented, developed, practically applied, tested, torn down, evaluated, measured, re- applied, and then after about 5 years it can be trusted. Then you have to pay some bastard at a magazine to advertise it for a few thousand per month, and fight with him wanting one for his own car for free. Then, after that you get to deal with clowns on forums that are talking about how good or bad it is, based off what some other clown said about it on some other forum, and neither of them have even touched the damn thing. They don;t own a tool box, and if they did, they wouldn't know how to open it- yet, they are experts.
The modern world, these opinions, and "social media" sucks. The majority of it is misinformation from pretenders and forumites. First hand information is disrespected, and isn't valued. It comes across as "that guy is trying to sell me something", when "that guy" is the only damn person out there that has actually experienced it.
Thats why I develop. When the project is done, I am done. I HATE selling anyone, anything. I have literally thrown things away or destroyed them to avoid selling them.
That said, you think these engines are expensive? My most expensive engines don't even fit Porsches... They fit old VWs, and the cheapest one is just as expensive as your M96 engine. My wait list for those engines is longer than the M96.
Most days I can say that I had more fun working in that old building with a dirt floor than I do today. Tonight I'm working on a 40 year old Swiss Military vehicle that hasn't ran in 5 years. Draining old gas from it, and being eaten alive by mosquitoes while I work on it in the yard, to keep the shop from smelling like dead gas. I get more satisfaction from this type of thing than anything else these days. Its real, its satisfying, and I don;t have to hear some screwed up opinion, or anyone whine about how their center cap isn't the way it was on their car before they shipped it... Or how someone's plastic ash tray "rusted" while we had the car. That one tops them all.
It makes me want to sell every Porsche I own!
Ok, rant off!
08-03-2017 | 01:56 AM
#51
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 865
Likes: 53
From: Vancouver, BC
You are at 2000+ to 1-
Those are cray odds
Don't be the Phil Collins of Porsche engine rebuilds/repairs
08-03-2017 | 09:07 AM
#52
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 218
Likes: 1
From: Massachusetts
"I see that reman engines are pushing $20k. Are the parts really that expensive or is the build that complicated, or are the reman builders just taking advantage of the Porsche name?
I hope that I can make this work. I really would like to have a Porsche before I get to old to drive one."
All of the above! You need to do some serious research/reading before you jump in with both feet. It sounds like you've got plenty of mechanical experience, so you've certainly got the skills to do the work. The main caveat being that there are MANY, MANY "gotcha's" with these engines. You'd be wise to try to take one of FSI/Jake Raby's "hands on" classes (preceded by the online course) before attempting a full "rebuild"... BTW the 996 IS a 911 regardless of what the aircooled guys say...
I hope that I can make this work. I really would like to have a Porsche before I get to old to drive one."
All of the above! You need to do some serious research/reading before you jump in with both feet. It sounds like you've got plenty of mechanical experience, so you've certainly got the skills to do the work. The main caveat being that there are MANY, MANY "gotcha's" with these engines. You'd be wise to try to take one of FSI/Jake Raby's "hands on" classes (preceded by the online course) before attempting a full "rebuild"... BTW the 996 IS a 911 regardless of what the aircooled guys say...
Thanks for adding this sentence
08-03-2017 | 09:48 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,808
Likes: 1,186
From: L.I. NY
Posted by AmberGramps in that other forum: "Everyone thinks they've got a 911 but Porsche stopped making the 911 in 1989."
^^^I think the 964/993 guys are going to be apoplectic when they find out their mega-buck 911's aren't "911's" !!!
^^^I think the 964/993 guys are going to be apoplectic when they find out their mega-buck 911's aren't "911's" !!!
08-04-2017 | 03:25 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 553
Likes: 19
From: Tarpon Springs, FL
Can you (or someone else who knows) elaborate on the mindset of leaving the old oil control rings in in the same position? I've heard this before, but not explained in detail...
08-04-2017 | 06:22 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 932
Likes: 371
From: Fair Oaks, CA
when your cylinders wear in to a oval shape, it doesn't do any good to install with new oil rings which will be close to perfect circle on a oval cylinder, at least using the old rings in the same cylinder and position, you have some oil control, at best a crap shoot.
08-04-2017 | 06:40 PM
#57
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 25
From: Los Angeles
You must leave every ring in exactly the position it was.Then pin some/all in that exact position. Assuming you have measurable ovality.
Now tell us how you will measure ovality ,to what decree of accuracy and precision.
Otherwise it is just a variation of the "Square peg /round hole "story.
And I know maybe 10% of the M96 quirks at most !!
08-04-2017 | 06:51 PM
#58
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,968
Likes: 2,295
From: Cleveland Georgia
No compromise.
08-04-2017 | 06:57 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 932
Likes: 371
From: Fair Oaks, CA
08-04-2017 | 07:01 PM
#60
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 25
From: Los Angeles
There is another aspect imho & experience.
Many a fool (with inadequate M96 education -like me) can slap together an M96 and it will run. But for how long and with what defects ?
The fool will have wasted all the time and money on new parts ,special tools and equipment.He may have $spent countless hours on Forums and reading to find a few specifications and accumulated thousands of Posts.
There are wiser alternatives to dealing with the broken M96 situation.That is the only piece of M96 wisdom I am confident about :-)
Many a fool (with inadequate M96 education -like me) can slap together an M96 and it will run. But for how long and with what defects ?
The fool will have wasted all the time and money on new parts ,special tools and equipment.He may have $spent countless hours on Forums and reading to find a few specifications and accumulated thousands of Posts.
There are wiser alternatives to dealing with the broken M96 situation.That is the only piece of M96 wisdom I am confident about :-)