I think I'm in love
11-13-2003, 03:32 PM
#16
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Oh course it is easy Scott. Actually it really is pretty straight forward. Dropping the bumper is only 10 bolts or so and then that is out of your way. A couple of fenderwells, and then everything is exposed. You should have a good set of oil line wrenches for Porsches for securing the new lines. Most of the lines I believe were 32mm. You need the thin oil line ones to make the job easier, and to insure no leaks.... Do not forget the new fan resistors as you will be right there, and one has to come off the frame anyway on the A/C side...
Good luck.....
Good luck.....
11-13-2003, 05:32 PM
#17
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Bob,
I understand the Cargraphics oil cooler is a better, more efficient version than the TT S oil cooler, is this correct.
Could I use the existing oil lines to the S oil cooler, with the Cargraphics version...or are they in different locations.
Also, as far as mods go...I have already been corrupted by you guys
Unfortunately, as my car is a recent purchase my wife has this idea that I can't spend any money...yet.
So in the interim, I am investigating my options and living the upgrade path vicariously through you guys
- james
I understand the Cargraphics oil cooler is a better, more efficient version than the TT S oil cooler, is this correct.
Could I use the existing oil lines to the S oil cooler, with the Cargraphics version...or are they in different locations.
Also, as far as mods go...I have already been corrupted by you guys
Unfortunately, as my car is a recent purchase my wife has this idea that I can't spend any money...yet.
So in the interim, I am investigating my options and living the upgrade path vicariously through you guys
- james
11-13-2003, 07:33 PM
#18
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James - the S oil lines are not long enough for the Cargraphic oil cooler. It is not that much more work to change these out in the grand scheme of the project.
On the other hand, I think you are fine with the S cooler. Apparently Andial in SoCal and me are the only ones who think this (Andial claims that the S cooler is the only aux cooler they use in their high HP 993TTs up to something like 600HP - and they test these out a Willow Springs - a very warm place).
I had my 520 HP TT out at Willow Springs on a 110 degree day with my wife and I driving the car back to back in alternate sessions - figure about 6 hours of track time - and the car never got above 9 o'clock on the temp gauge while on the track. Unlike most people here, I think the S cooler is ideally placed right in front to get tons of air flow. The Cargraphic unit sits in the fender well and has to fight with the AC condenser for air flow. Without the AC condenser there I would have no doubt that the bigger Cargraphic unit would dissipate more heat - and this is apprently how Porsche set up some of there 993 race cars - 2 large oil coolers - one in each front fender (but you can bet there was no AC in those cars).
I really think the ideal setup in the 2 S type coolers run in sequence in front of the car as some people have posted about on the 993 board. Here is a pictue of where the oil temp gauge in my car is on the freeway on a 100 plus day:
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/oiltemp.jpg
On the other hand, I think you are fine with the S cooler. Apparently Andial in SoCal and me are the only ones who think this (Andial claims that the S cooler is the only aux cooler they use in their high HP 993TTs up to something like 600HP - and they test these out a Willow Springs - a very warm place).
I had my 520 HP TT out at Willow Springs on a 110 degree day with my wife and I driving the car back to back in alternate sessions - figure about 6 hours of track time - and the car never got above 9 o'clock on the temp gauge while on the track. Unlike most people here, I think the S cooler is ideally placed right in front to get tons of air flow. The Cargraphic unit sits in the fender well and has to fight with the AC condenser for air flow. Without the AC condenser there I would have no doubt that the bigger Cargraphic unit would dissipate more heat - and this is apprently how Porsche set up some of there 993 race cars - 2 large oil coolers - one in each front fender (but you can bet there was no AC in those cars).
I really think the ideal setup in the 2 S type coolers run in sequence in front of the car as some people have posted about on the 993 board. Here is a pictue of where the oil temp gauge in my car is on the freeway on a 100 plus day:
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/oiltemp.jpg
11-13-2003, 08:17 PM
#19
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Bill,
Thank you for the information, and the picture.
I think under these circumstances I will stick with the Turbo S oil cooler, sounds like it will serve me well even for some basic performance upgrades I have planned.
- james
Thank you for the information, and the picture.
I think under these circumstances I will stick with the Turbo S oil cooler, sounds like it will serve me well even for some basic performance upgrades I have planned.
- james
11-13-2003, 08:44 PM
#20
James, this may help with your background info on oil coolers: http://www.993faq.com/archives/cat_engine.html#000222
11-14-2003, 01:43 AM
#21
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FWIW, on the same very hot day at Willow Springs (7/02) that Bill discusses above, I drove my stock 993TT in alternating sessions, and the temp gauge also did not go above 9 O'clock. My oil cooler is stock.
11-14-2003, 01:02 PM
#22
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Originally posted by LeeR
FWIW, on the same very hot day at Willow Springs (7/02) that Bill discusses above, I drove my stock 993TT in alternating sessions, and the temp gauge also did not go above 9 O'clock. My oil cooler is stock.
FWIW, on the same very hot day at Willow Springs (7/02) that Bill discusses above, I drove my stock 993TT in alternating sessions, and the temp gauge also did not go above 9 O'clock. My oil cooler is stock.
Really though - that is a good point. Lee's car is stock and the factory cooling system works well for him. For cars that see lots of track time auxilliary cooling is a no brainer- and for cars with pumped up HP it should be there as well. You figure Porsche thought the S cooler was good enough for the Turbo S car at 450 HP and Porsche is known for building in a larger margin of error. That being said, there is no doubt that large CG oil cooler is a very good add on.
11-14-2003, 02:31 PM
#23
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I was getting my oil temps above the last white mark before the red at Buttonwillow when it was 104. So I'm definitely interested in more cooling. I don't go very fast, but I kind of forget to shift sometimes.
(I know, bloody amateurs!)
(I know, bloody amateurs!)
11-14-2003, 03:11 PM
#24
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Scott - 9 o'clock on the gauge is around 215 I believe. It sounds like you were getting up into the 240 range or so (at least per your gauge) which is definitely a bit hot (you know the old Bruce Anderson axiom "240 is hot, 250 is too damned hot").
One thing of note though, given that others, such as me, with your same cooling setup, have reported much cooler temps, you may want to look at a few other things first.
As a side story, I spent over a year trying to get my 87 Carrera oil temp cooler. With the stock oil cooling setup, I was seeing oil temps over 200 in just normal driving on cool days - it really should have been 10 - 20 degrees cooler. What was odd was I was seeing only about 210 - 220 on track days in really hot conditions (i.e. Thuderhill on a 100 degree day).
So I checked and replaced my auxilliary oil cooler thermostat (supposed to open at 180). This made no difference - even though I had tested the T-stat to be sure it opened at the correct temp. Well, then I noticed I had a crimp in one of the aux oil lines. This is very comon on the older cars as these lines are metal and run right by the jack points - not a very smart design as many of them get crimped from poor jack, ift, or stand placement. So I figured this must be the problem - I replaced those lines with special finned lines from Elephant Racing (neat lines, but pricey). In any case this also made no noticeable difference. I was certain the T-stat was opening and that the oil was flowing through the cooler so what was the deal?
Well after some more research, someone over at Pelican Parts suggested my oil temp gauge may be off. So I took a manual reading of the engine oil temp while it was warmed up and sure enough it seemed to be about 20 degrees lower than what my in-car gauge read. I replaced the temp gauge and sender and lo and behold my car runs 20 degrees cooler now.
So - going forward, if I am concerned about oil temps I will always do a cross check to be sure the in-car gauge is accurate.
The other area you may want to check is your Air Fuel ratio. If the car is going too lean under heavy boost it will generate more heat than it should as the extra fuel pumped in under boost also acts as coolant for the cylinders (which explains that wonderful gas mileage you get at the track with turbo cars). This can also be tested with an external diagnostic gauge.
It is much cheaper - as I now know - to test the equipment you have before adding new stuff to fix "perceived" problems.
One thing of note though, given that others, such as me, with your same cooling setup, have reported much cooler temps, you may want to look at a few other things first.
As a side story, I spent over a year trying to get my 87 Carrera oil temp cooler. With the stock oil cooling setup, I was seeing oil temps over 200 in just normal driving on cool days - it really should have been 10 - 20 degrees cooler. What was odd was I was seeing only about 210 - 220 on track days in really hot conditions (i.e. Thuderhill on a 100 degree day).
So I checked and replaced my auxilliary oil cooler thermostat (supposed to open at 180). This made no difference - even though I had tested the T-stat to be sure it opened at the correct temp. Well, then I noticed I had a crimp in one of the aux oil lines. This is very comon on the older cars as these lines are metal and run right by the jack points - not a very smart design as many of them get crimped from poor jack, ift, or stand placement. So I figured this must be the problem - I replaced those lines with special finned lines from Elephant Racing (neat lines, but pricey). In any case this also made no noticeable difference. I was certain the T-stat was opening and that the oil was flowing through the cooler so what was the deal?
Well after some more research, someone over at Pelican Parts suggested my oil temp gauge may be off. So I took a manual reading of the engine oil temp while it was warmed up and sure enough it seemed to be about 20 degrees lower than what my in-car gauge read. I replaced the temp gauge and sender and lo and behold my car runs 20 degrees cooler now.
So - going forward, if I am concerned about oil temps I will always do a cross check to be sure the in-car gauge is accurate.
The other area you may want to check is your Air Fuel ratio. If the car is going too lean under heavy boost it will generate more heat than it should as the extra fuel pumped in under boost also acts as coolant for the cylinders (which explains that wonderful gas mileage you get at the track with turbo cars). This can also be tested with an external diagnostic gauge.
It is much cheaper - as I now know - to test the equipment you have before adding new stuff to fix "perceived" problems.
11-14-2003, 04:21 PM
#25
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Bill:
Thanks for your post. I too have been wondering why your car, with more power and the same cooler, exhibits no problem. I know my therrmostat is working, because I can see the temp raise up and then drop down as it opens. Also I can hear the gurgle as it flows through.
I do have the 5 bar fuel pressure regulator.
How did you test your oil temperature?
Also, how do you get your A/F ratio checked?
I'll probably talk to Mike Schatz this weekend and run some of this by him.
Thanks again; this is one problem that I want to track down, since the ramifications are so expensive.
Thanks for your post. I too have been wondering why your car, with more power and the same cooler, exhibits no problem. I know my therrmostat is working, because I can see the temp raise up and then drop down as it opens. Also I can hear the gurgle as it flows through.
I do have the 5 bar fuel pressure regulator.
How did you test your oil temperature?
Also, how do you get your A/F ratio checked?
I'll probably talk to Mike Schatz this weekend and run some of this by him.
Thanks again; this is one problem that I want to track down, since the ramifications are so expensive.
11-14-2003, 04:40 PM
#26
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Scott - just because the external T-stat is opening does not mean it is functioning properly. These can get crudded up over time and thus take more pressure (meaning higher oil temp) to open them (assuming they work the same as the older T-stats work). In the older cars, it is a pretty neat and simple system. There is a metal plunger - kind of looks like a golf tee - that pushes inside a metal cylinder with very close tolerance. The tee and the cylinder are different metals so they expand a different rates when heated. The tee graduates to a point, so when it is heated by the oil it pushes out as it expands more rapidly than the cylinder it slides into. When it pushes out it opens a gate valve that allows the oil to flor to the auxilliary coooler(s). There is a counter spring that then closes the mechanism when the oil cools down below about 180 degrees.
To test your oil temp, the easiest way it probably to get a temperature probe that you can drop down into the oil tank - your mechanic should have this or another way to test oil temp. A real amateur way would be to find a spot on the engine that is metal and has constant oil flow through it and put a temp probe there - I really cannot htink of where you could do this on a 993 as the valve covers are not metal like the older cars. You could also just get a meat/candy thermometer and wrap a wire around it a lower it into the oil filler tube - I would not recommend this because it could get stuck or fall in (but I have heard it can be done). You also need to know what the marks on your gauge mean - Robin's www.p-car.com site has a good reference.
Really though, even if your T-stat was opening a bit late, the car temp should stabilize after it opens and not get excessively hot.
As for the A/F ratio there are 2 ways I know of. You need to be able to check this under full load, so you will need to either put the car on a dyno with a A/F probe inserted into the exhaust or drive the car with an external A/F tester hooked up. I would think your mechanic would have one of these as well.
To test your oil temp, the easiest way it probably to get a temperature probe that you can drop down into the oil tank - your mechanic should have this or another way to test oil temp. A real amateur way would be to find a spot on the engine that is metal and has constant oil flow through it and put a temp probe there - I really cannot htink of where you could do this on a 993 as the valve covers are not metal like the older cars. You could also just get a meat/candy thermometer and wrap a wire around it a lower it into the oil filler tube - I would not recommend this because it could get stuck or fall in (but I have heard it can be done). You also need to know what the marks on your gauge mean - Robin's www.p-car.com site has a good reference.
Really though, even if your T-stat was opening a bit late, the car temp should stabilize after it opens and not get excessively hot.
As for the A/F ratio there are 2 ways I know of. You need to be able to check this under full load, so you will need to either put the car on a dyno with a A/F probe inserted into the exhaust or drive the car with an external A/F tester hooked up. I would think your mechanic would have one of these as well.
11-18-2003, 01:00 AM
#27
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Go to Getty they have some really nice pieces!
http://www.gettydesign.com/Gallery/P...allery993.html
http://www.gettydesign.com/Gallery/P...allery993.html