High milage Turbo S on Ebay
10-01-2015, 08:57 AM
#31
Race Director
It is relevant because your rationale today, when applied to the past, would have led to you driving a less valuable car but paying more money for it. I.e., people who paid up the extra to get a TTS not only drove a TTS instead of a TT, but also ended up having a lower cost of ownership.
I don't know if the next 7 years will be the same as the last, but paying a huge premium for a TTS over a TT is clearly not always a waste of money, even when the TTS has high miles. Assuming this bid of 217k for the current 100k miles TTS is real, this guy made a killing by going the opposite way of the accepted idea that buying high mile collectibles is stupid.
I am certain that if I offered my high mile TTS for sale today, that I would at least double or triple what I paid for it, and it was and still is considered high miles. It might be true that low mile TT and TTSs went up by a similar amount, but it has certainly not been the case that higher mile TTSs haven't gone up while only the low mile cars have. My argument is that the older the cars get, the less miles matter and the more rarity, originality, and condition matter. If that is the case, this 217k car could be a much better buy than a 30k mile TT for 200k.
Ultimately, I was prepared when I bought the car for its value to go close to zero over time, so the fact that it hasn't has been a bonus. People pay premiums for all sorts of random stuff, the "S" is just one example. Why do people pay extra for a rare color? It doesn't affect performance, and is purely for show. Same thing with a lot of the options people pay for when they buy their Porsches. I think paying an extra 50% or even 100% for the S features is worth it. You may not, and hence you didn't buy it. Some corvette guy is laughing at all of us because his car is faster, newer, and cheaper.
I don't know if the next 7 years will be the same as the last, but paying a huge premium for a TTS over a TT is clearly not always a waste of money, even when the TTS has high miles. Assuming this bid of 217k for the current 100k miles TTS is real, this guy made a killing by going the opposite way of the accepted idea that buying high mile collectibles is stupid.
I am certain that if I offered my high mile TTS for sale today, that I would at least double or triple what I paid for it, and it was and still is considered high miles. It might be true that low mile TT and TTSs went up by a similar amount, but it has certainly not been the case that higher mile TTSs haven't gone up while only the low mile cars have. My argument is that the older the cars get, the less miles matter and the more rarity, originality, and condition matter. If that is the case, this 217k car could be a much better buy than a 30k mile TT for 200k.
Ultimately, I was prepared when I bought the car for its value to go close to zero over time, so the fact that it hasn't has been a bonus. People pay premiums for all sorts of random stuff, the "S" is just one example. Why do people pay extra for a rare color? It doesn't affect performance, and is purely for show. Same thing with a lot of the options people pay for when they buy their Porsches. I think paying an extra 50% or even 100% for the S features is worth it. You may not, and hence you didn't buy it. Some corvette guy is laughing at all of us because his car is faster, newer, and cheaper.
no point in arguing. You obviously think a computer upgrade and some appearance items is worth the money. I don't. Neither of us is going to change our mind.
10-01-2015, 09:34 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
That is the point.
Which is better and what is an improvement has little relevance. If it was all about what car was best, faster, more refined etc than none of these cars should be worth anything. I personally like them all but I set my focus on the 964 for its raw visceral old school feel. The 993 has some considerable upgrades to that platform which 99% of all 993 owners would argue is better and therefore should make them more valuable than a comparable 964.
In actuality it has no bearing. Pricing has now gotten to the point that it has no bearing on performance and which is better or worse. Your still thinking like an enthusiast. Why would I have people offering me over $60k for my 964 when a 60k mile 993 would not fetch close to that? Or why would people pay $280k for my friends 65 911 when you can buy a 993TT for far less?
It is all about exclusivity that is why rare models, options, colors and condition are in high demand. The 94 turbo S flachbau is not IMO an attractive car never was a fan of the slope nose. The power upgrade was pointless and you can easily improve on a stock 3.6T to achieve more power and still be able to turn it back to stock. Why is a 355HP 964 turbo 3.6 fetching on average over $100k more than a comparable 993TT? Because of rarity. Only 350 US turbo 3.6's imported and far fewer left. There were more 993TT's made than 964 C2's.
Fact is pricing is now driven by exclusivity and having something everyone else doesn't have or obtaining that illusive model missing from a collection. If this were about what car is better that becomes subjective because we all have different criteria for that and pricing would be different but collectors want what is hardest to obtain and as some have said there are a ton of 993's of all types for sale while 964's are becoming harder to find in any condition. Most of which aren't worth touching.
Which is better and what is an improvement has little relevance. If it was all about what car was best, faster, more refined etc than none of these cars should be worth anything. I personally like them all but I set my focus on the 964 for its raw visceral old school feel. The 993 has some considerable upgrades to that platform which 99% of all 993 owners would argue is better and therefore should make them more valuable than a comparable 964.
In actuality it has no bearing. Pricing has now gotten to the point that it has no bearing on performance and which is better or worse. Your still thinking like an enthusiast. Why would I have people offering me over $60k for my 964 when a 60k mile 993 would not fetch close to that? Or why would people pay $280k for my friends 65 911 when you can buy a 993TT for far less?
It is all about exclusivity that is why rare models, options, colors and condition are in high demand. The 94 turbo S flachbau is not IMO an attractive car never was a fan of the slope nose. The power upgrade was pointless and you can easily improve on a stock 3.6T to achieve more power and still be able to turn it back to stock. Why is a 355HP 964 turbo 3.6 fetching on average over $100k more than a comparable 993TT? Because of rarity. Only 350 US turbo 3.6's imported and far fewer left. There were more 993TT's made than 964 C2's.
Fact is pricing is now driven by exclusivity and having something everyone else doesn't have or obtaining that illusive model missing from a collection. If this were about what car is better that becomes subjective because we all have different criteria for that and pricing would be different but collectors want what is hardest to obtain and as some have said there are a ton of 993's of all types for sale while 964's are becoming harder to find in any condition. Most of which aren't worth touching.
10-01-2015, 12:58 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
10-01-2015, 05:15 PM
#35
Race Director
10-02-2015, 01:46 AM
#36
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Rsrity
Rarity is the name of the game. Production number, PTS and special edition all bring higher selling price due to the rarity factor. The market has spoken.
To me this car has maybe a 20k premium over the standard 993TT.
Collectors want super low mile cars. In terms of driving, the TTs is basically no different. Since it will likely be of very little interest to collectors, the premium is really just due to rarity (who cares) and the extra options (which are meh in my opinion)
Collectors want super low mile cars. In terms of driving, the TTs is basically no different. Since it will likely be of very little interest to collectors, the premium is really just due to rarity (who cares) and the extra options (which are meh in my opinion)
10-02-2015, 11:14 AM
#37
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this high mile TTS just goes to show that if the production numbers are low, even with miles and wear there is still strong market and resale for it.
Porsche world is crazy. Certain colors can command large premiums and in the case of the TTS, a few nic nacs beyond the TT bring out the big bucks.
The "interesting" factor of the TTS options and rarity is what attracts the buyer more so then the perfomance over the TT.
I must admit, i am a sucker for nic nacs...
What drives me crazy is how I actually would consider paying $220k for a chit box TTS instead of a pristine TT.... lol!
Porsche world is crazy. Certain colors can command large premiums and in the case of the TTS, a few nic nacs beyond the TT bring out the big bucks.
The "interesting" factor of the TTS options and rarity is what attracts the buyer more so then the perfomance over the TT.
I must admit, i am a sucker for nic nacs...
What drives me crazy is how I actually would consider paying $220k for a chit box TTS instead of a pristine TT.... lol!
10-02-2015, 11:15 AM
#38
Race Director
this high mile TTS just goes to show that if the production numbers are low, even with miles and wear there is still strong market and resale for it.
Porsche world is crazy. Certain colors can command large premiums and in the case of the TTS, a few nic nacs beyond the TT bring out the big bucks.
The "interesting" factor of the TTS options and rarity is what attracts the buyer more so then the perfomance over the TT.
I must admit, i am a sucker for nic nacs...
Porsche world is crazy. Certain colors can command large premiums and in the case of the TTS, a few nic nacs beyond the TT bring out the big bucks.
The "interesting" factor of the TTS options and rarity is what attracts the buyer more so then the perfomance over the TT.
I must admit, i am a sucker for nic nacs...
10-02-2015, 03:18 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by Quadcammer
Maybe its time for me to go back to mustangs or something, because this rarity and "interesting" stuff is so boring to me.
10-02-2015, 03:20 PM
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Not everyone buys into the rarity game but that is how all collectibles work. Coins, stamps, baseball cards...etc.
Some people feel that 993 turbo S are way overvalued. It may be so but it is not out of line. A pristine example of 993 turbo will be $200k and similar condition turbo s will trade in the high $500 -$600. Some may say it is just some add on parts on a turbo s and is not worth 3x but it is the market. Same goes with other limited production examples, including other marques. Ferrari produced 1288 Challenge Stradale and it is now trading 3x of 360. Should we talk about hemi Cuda and Barracuda or Mustangs
Some people feel that 993 turbo S are way overvalued. It may be so but it is not out of line. A pristine example of 993 turbo will be $200k and similar condition turbo s will trade in the high $500 -$600. Some may say it is just some add on parts on a turbo s and is not worth 3x but it is the market. Same goes with other limited production examples, including other marques. Ferrari produced 1288 Challenge Stradale and it is now trading 3x of 360. Should we talk about hemi Cuda and Barracuda or Mustangs
10-02-2015, 07:17 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
I figured I'd stir the pot here. Ok, a Porsche speedster 1955-1959 ranges from $200-$500,000. The same car with a carrera engine will run $1,100,000 - $1,700,000. Same car, different engine. Makes the 993 tt vs 993 tt S a much better deal
10-03-2015, 09:58 AM
#42
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If you find it boring then you are normal. It is the geeks that bury themselves in the world of chasing and collecting.
I am slightly suffering from the geek mentality and I find myself getting worse lol.
10-03-2015, 03:25 PM
#43
The low production/great condition/low mile cars will always be worth a lot of money. Because they are art.
Personally I think my 993tt with all original paint and 58k miles is currently overvalued. So is all 993tt at the moment. Because they are not that rare.
IMO a 75k mile tts that is in less than perfect condition is also overvalued at $200k! It's a beater.
However a mint low mile 993tts could easily be worth $400k. Because it ticks all the boxes. Low production nr/ low mile/ mint condition. It's art!
Personally I think my 993tt with all original paint and 58k miles is currently overvalued. So is all 993tt at the moment. Because they are not that rare.
IMO a 75k mile tts that is in less than perfect condition is also overvalued at $200k! It's a beater.
However a mint low mile 993tts could easily be worth $400k. Because it ticks all the boxes. Low production nr/ low mile/ mint condition. It's art!
10-03-2015, 09:22 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
The low production/great condition/low mile cars will always be worth a lot of money. Because they are art.
Personally I think my 993tt with all original paint and 58k miles is currently overvalued. So is all 993tt at the moment. Because they are not that rare.
IMO a 75k mile tts that is in less than perfect condition is also overvalued at $200k! It's a beater.
However a mint low mile 993tts could easily be worth $400k. Because it ticks all the boxes. Low production nr/ low mile/ mint condition. It's art!
Personally I think my 993tt with all original paint and 58k miles is currently overvalued. So is all 993tt at the moment. Because they are not that rare.
IMO a 75k mile tts that is in less than perfect condition is also overvalued at $200k! It's a beater.
However a mint low mile 993tts could easily be worth $400k. Because it ticks all the boxes. Low production nr/ low mile/ mint condition. It's art!
I enjoy judging Concours events and seeing a well preserved or restored car. While looking for faults I find myself looking back to a different time.
Condition I find is most important restored or not.
10-04-2015, 04:39 AM
#45
Not that I disagree however I have recently been involved with restorations of early 65-70's 911's and some newer cars as well. In some cases the end product equals or exceeds photographic documentation of these cars from day of delivery. So I ask what makes a high mileage car restored to the highest level any less? If everything is in place and looks as new irrespective of what the odo reads, to me it is still a thing of beauty.
I enjoy judging Concours events and seeing a well preserved or restored car. While looking for faults I find myself looking back to a different time.
Condition I find is most important restored or not.
I enjoy judging Concours events and seeing a well preserved or restored car. While looking for faults I find myself looking back to a different time.
Condition I find is most important restored or not.
A well documented restoration of old cars will still tick the boxes. And we all know the amount of hours and $ goes into something like that.
However, when it comes to a 20 year old 993tt/s. To me it falls in between the old and new. There are still plenty 993tt to choose from. Obviously with less than 400 tts produced it will get harder and harder to find a pristine example. So it might be worth doing a full restoration on "a high mile" car. If you keep it for another 20 years.
I have very little experience with concours event. So this is from an amateur drivers perspective.