DrJupeman

I have read through as many posts as I could search on concerning 993TT's and track use. I guess I am posting this thread to extrapolate more opinions from folks on how good they think the 993TT is for frequent track use. I have heard rumors that the front transaxle is not up to the abuse, that the car understeers, etc... I am not terribly concerned with the understeer issue as I assume (and have read in this forum) that mods can dial that out.

What kind of longevity/wear are people seeing for pads, rotors, and R compound tires in track days? Cost per day estimates?

I guess my biggest concern is simply the car's weight, its impact on handling and on wear/tear item life (pads, rotors, tires).

How about CV joint longevity? Bearings?

Do folks experience any brake fade? Particularly those who have used their cars (hard!) at Watkins Glen?

My track cars have run the gamut from a 914 to a GT3 Cup. The latter is insanely awesome but my inability to obtain reasonable DE-covering insurance in NJ on the car is leading me back to a "street car" based track steed.

What would you recommend INSTEAD of a 993TT for track use for similar or less purchase price? I love all the "cups" but the inability to obtain insurance on them has turned me off. I've decided I can't afford to self insure that much.

In general I would prefer light and nimble, but I also have found that I basically love driving all Porsches. I have real lap time in 914s, 951s, 964s, 993s, 986s, and the GT3 Cup. They are all fun to me in their own way.

Thanks in advance for any advice on the 993TT option.

Thanks,
Charlie
'00 GT3 Cup
'01 Boxster S

Greg Fishman

Why not look at a '04 GT3 street car? A 993TT is an awesome track ride if set up properly but it will go through tires, brakes etc much quicker than a lighter RS-Speced 993.

viperbob

Charlie,

I am just in the process of adjusting mine for the track. I have pretty much dialed out the understeer. I am working on a brake cooling setup for the car. I have my car down to the 3000 lb range, but it needs brake cooling. Of course this was also on a high speed track at 104 degrees outside...

I love the TT on the track. Great power, but I need to tune my driving skills for the dual turbos. It is a VERY delicate balance going through the turns. I had a 3.6T with mods, but this car is much more responsive to throttle.

Besides, 500+ HP blasting out of turn one keeping all the power in through turn two and up through the esses all the way to the braking zone for the bus stop is REALLY fun. Then a little downshift to 4th keeping it at about 100 MPH through bus stop is just as good as it gets... Get the turbo.

Jeff 993TT

I guess I'm a bit confused when I first read this post. The 993TT will probably never make a good track car, unless you dump in tons, and tons of money.

If I were to get a "good" track car, then I'd get a spec racer ford, spec miata, radical, motorsports elise, etc. Now those are "good" track cars and much cheaper to buy/operate/maintain also. Light weight is key, and unfortunately, the TT is a bit on the heavy side.

I guess it comes down to what your interpretation of "good" is. Have you looked into some of the purpose built race cars out there?

DrJupeman

'04 GT3: too much $. I'd like to go down in capital investment with the next car.

Understood on the brake/tire wear on the 993TT, I am trying to gain a sense of wear rate vs. a 993 or 996.

As for 993 RS-spec, if I can find a street-legal car that has been done correctly, I'd seriously consider it.

DrJupeman

Understood on the "good" track car comment, too. I am torn with this. I have gone purpose built 914, I have a GT3 Cup, in other words I have owned/driven the "good" track cars.

Right now I'm pondering consolidating my two Porsches into one. So the question really should be, is the 993TT a good dual purpose car. Daily driver and track.

Greg Fishman

I would say that yes it is. But on the other side of the coin (and price point) a nice 944 Turbo S with lots of suspension and go fast parts could possibly be 1/3 of the price and just as quick.

clubrcr

If you are looking for a dual purpose car, the 993tt makes an OK DE car. I think that most of the post hit it dead on... To make a 993tt a great stock race car that is competetive, you spend money and you'll most likely make it a "tough" car for a daily driver.

If you are interested I have a 1992 US Carerra Cup that is street leagl and set up for PCA racing. I have only raced two 993RS Club Sport's and have been faster than both of them. Not as fast as most 993 Supercups ofcourse (the 993 supercup has 3.8ltr, better suspension, more gears etc.), but I have been faster than some. Great car.

By the way, if you are in the USA, Porsche did not import any 993RSs here. So if you want a street legal RS, you would have to buy a replica.

DrJupeman

Clubrcr, I'd consider your '92. Send me an email, jupeman@gtc-motorsports.com and we can discuss offline.

I understand the 944 Turbo S thing, too. I've had/tracked a 951. I have grown not to like the front engine water pumpers that much.

DrJupeman

ViperBob, what have you done to get your car to 3000 lbs?

viperbob

You.ve just got to start taking stuff out. Spare tire, pump, carpet, etc in the trunk area. Removed the water bottle and the gallon of required fluid. I've a smaller battery (this saved 25 lbs by itself), removed my rear seats, belts, etc. No more heater fan in the engine compartment along with all the extra duct work on top and below the engine. Giant aluminum intercooler saved 10-12 lbs along with the removal of the air stream deflector plastic piece in the rear wing. Cat bypass pipes (saved 25 lbs) then removed the heater pods, installed a billet muffler in its place and got rid of the two mufflers in the wheel wells (save another 65 lbs). Light weight 3 piece 17" wheels with Hoosiers (saved about 8 lbs per corner over hollow spoke 996tt wheels with Pilot Sport Cups) The list goes on. Essentially, if you can save 2-5 lbs here and there, it adds up quick....

Then to this I have added a roll bar, and a cargraphic second oil cooler. If you add weight, it better be necessary...

DrJupeman

So, Viperbob, how long do your Hoosiers last? Brake pads? Do you replace CV joints frequently? Any bearing problems?

Anir

Charlie,

Welcome to Rennlist. It sounds like you've had a bit of fun in various p-cars.

I have driven my 993TT on the street as an all-season daily driver for 3 years, while taking it to track weekends about 8 times (maybe 20 days total). I think it makes a great dual-purpose car - at least, I did until wrecking it in the Kink at RA two weeks ago. State Farm will foot the $25-30K+ bill, but I'm not too sure they'll keep me after this.

I would agree with others that brake overheating is the weak link, especially in my stock, luxury-laden, 3400 lb car. At fast tracks like Road America, the brakes have to scrub off tons of speed in a heavy car in a short amount of space. They are definitely up to the task, especially with aggressive pads like Pagid Blacks, but I find that I have to bleed the calipers after every 1-2 sessions. A brake cooling set-up would hopefully help.

Oil temp overheating was sometimes an issue (10 o'clock temps at the end of a 30 minute run in warm weather) until I unplugged the temp sensor on the stock oil cooler (to force the fan to run on high) and added a second Cargraphic GT auxiliary oil cooler in the left front fender. Cost: $1,500 plus installation.

I've been impressed with how many weekends I can get out of a set of R-compound Pirelli P-Zero C's. My first set lasted me through 3-4 months of summer street driving and 3-4 track weekends, including driving to and from the tracks. I'm sure I gave up a little time to the boys with Hoosiers, but not too much. Good compromise tires, as I'm sure the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are.

I dialed out just about all the understeer by adding an RS adjustable rear sway bar (set to full stiff) and by increasing the front tire width to 245/35-18 while maintaining the 285/30-18 rear, all on lighter Fikse FM-10's in 8.5" and 10.5" widths, respectively.

I added adjustable coilover PSS-9's, which were an excellent compromise suspension solution for about $2,000 (self-installed with Greg Fishman's help).

My car has been perfectly reliable except for a turbo hose which blew off after a long running period at sustained boost. Easily reattached with no damage done.

The single best mod I did was two leather GT3 seats, with proper 6-point Teamtech harnesses (required some drilling!). Cost: about $3,300 total.

So, other than the $11K+ dumped into mods, how much does it cost? My wife and I tried to figure this out the other day:

- Tires: about $250/weekend (4 weekends on a set)
- Brakes: estimate $200/weekend (2 weekends on a set of Pagids - maybe more at slower tracks)
- Gas: about $100 / weekend for 93 octane
- Miscellaneous: maybe $50? (brake fluid, etc)
- Event registration fees: $250-400 / weekend

Overall, not too expensive (under $1,000 / weekend) - UNTIL you crunch it, if you do. That's when you start wondering why you're not running something else! The factory rear wing alone on the TT costs about $4K from Gert, and about $7K is the price that my body shop is charging State Farm. Unreal.

viperbob

This was the first track event for this car. I have a certain level of things that I need to do before I am comfortable taking my car on the track. So now that it is initiated, I'll probably do 25-30 days per year in DE events. While I can not answer your question about this car, from driving a 3.6 Turbo and my other cars on the track, it depends.. As you see on TV some drivers styles lead to heavy brake and tire usage, and others don't. I can typically go almost an entire season (20+ event days) on a set of Pagids. I have already removed my Oranges from last weekend, and there was barely any wear on the fronts, and no perceptable wear on the rears. Same things holds with tires. Also from my past experiences, the CV joints will last forever, and the rear wheel bearings (especially the left) will need to be changed every couple of years (I have already replaced the left rear wheel bearing due to another problem related to a stupid tire store worker)

So the best thing to do is buy the Turbo, get the Hoosiers and Pagids and make the usage determination for yourself

ScottMellor

My 2 cents. I bought my car to be a daily driver and DE car. In one year I put on 15,000 miles, and attended my first 3 track days. The car has been wonderful. I blew off one turbo hose and went through one set of SO-2s.
(I have Kumhos on the stock wheels for the track).
I change the oil every 7500.
As a beginner track driver, all I can say is that it is WAY MORE than enough car for me to be learning with.
After spending a year at stock ROW suspension settings, Mr. Schatz set me up with RS suspension settings, and the car felt like it lost 100 pounds.
I've been super pleased with the overall do-it-all experience.