R2FU

Guys, thanks for your comments and guidance. To answer a few of the points you raise -

Both Jaz and JZ Machtech have spent some time going over the car in the past. I have had work done by both of them previously on this car and previous cars and been very happy, but with this problem I just got the sense they were just changing out anything they could think of without any particular plan. Maybe this is how you have to diagnose this kind of problem on a turbo but I was kind of hoping they would be able to get to some kind of root cause in a bit more of a structured way.

As my wallet took more and more dents without getting any further forward I have to say I found it a bit frustrating. This is why I've taken the car to Fearnsport who seemed to have a bit more of a specific reputation for being good with turbos. Having said that, I think the point you guys are making about getting a leakdown test done first is a good one. There is no point jumping in with both feet without full information available. If the engine needs a rebuild then I would take that opportunity to warm its spec up a little but if I can avoid circa £10k outlay then I would rather do that right now.

Let's face it I can afford to be patient right now and go about this methodically - with Christmas round the corner, year-end at work, a new baby due in the next couple of weeks, driving the turbo is going to have to take a little bit of a back seat for the time being anyway!

By the way 911Addict, I can vouch for the strong performance of your car - we met at the Pistonheads VMax day at Bruntingthorpe a few months back and you gave me a pax ride. Lovely motor! Sounds like you've parted with it now, any plans for a replacement Porsche?

911addict

Hey R2FU, have pm'ed you.
Yes, had to sell the car as my work has taken a dive (mortgage broker!!) so couldn't afford the supercar running costs. I now have a Fiat Coupe turbo, cheap as chips, but I bought a good'un and its great fun, and cheap to run too!

MOD500

Andy F is a great spanner man, and has worked on a lot of turbos and GT2's. Although 90k does sound a little premature (even to my mechanically ignorant ears) to pull the motor, for e.g. my own engine was rebuilt at 63k pre mods and it was said the internals were in fine fettle and the engine in general in good order. If you have not already done so, then would be worth doing the boost checks and changing N75 frequency valve, etc.

Regards tuning, I don't doubt Fearnsport could make your car faster. I would however check exactly who will be doing the remapping and further how Andy proposes to facilitate the new map working on the car. By this I mean asking if the map will have full Motronic control or be fixed boost, tuned via engine or chassis dyno. If fixed boost then this is not so good really especially in the UK with our wildly different summer / winter ambient temperatures, I recall a 993 modded by Andy and Co this way a while back that had cut out issues under sustained full throttle in cold weather.

I am of course a little biased towards RS Tuning. But the generic kits they peddle via Cargraphic are top notch with properly matched components and these are truly cohesive kits with full Motronic control. I would get prices from Parr and Cargraphic, and also RS directly, is worth talking to Gert @ Carnewal too as he is now an approved distributor for Cargraphic. Any competent garage could install the kits, so there is no issue here .... all are essentially bolt on, with only the 520 kit requiring new cams but if your motor is already split down then is no problem.

I would heartily recommend their race exhaust and cats also, sounds awesome:

http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.ph...3,731/&start=3

I won't talk UK vs German tuners / chassis vs engine dyno numbers as this has been covered loads on here over time.

You are welcome to come for a ride in my car if you are up in Yorkshire anytime, will gladly show you what RS Tuning power is like

Best Regards




Martyn.

JBL930

Hi Martyn

They don't use fixed boost, don't know if they used to but not anymore. It's a bit of a mystery how they actually do their tuning though, they don't use either a chassis or engine dyno, it's all done on the road i was told. They sometimes use the dyno at DS Automotives to see how it's performing but no dyno tuning. They have a chap that just burns chips for them i think, as you know mine puts in good numbers for the 60-130, it runs well.
I can imagine it being a whole lot quicker with the RS stuff though, and as we've both said the RS stuff is properly developed and tested. There must be a reason the RS kits use K24RS turbos to get to 493PS.

bb993tt

I got a similar story to Jon's when I met with Andy last year. Parts list is pretty straightforward (no cams); they install everything; they outsource the ecu remapping; they get a baseline chassis dyno done in Milton Keynes(?); they finalize the tuning with a laptop on the road. No fixed boost. I think that was at his former shop. One PH'er had his 993TT done there. IIRC, one dyno showed 540 hp(?) and a different one 510. Andy said he believed the 510 number, but it was a one off and he couldn't replicate it. Don't know what the story is now.

MOD500

Fair play, glad to hear fixed boost is a thing of the past with Fearnsport.

Would imagine the 493 kit is very quick, is interesting RS need big K24RS turbos to get even to this level of power, where others think 16/24 hybrids are sufficient.

I guess the moot point here is exactly what you are looking for from your mods ..... the FS kit will be quick and give good 60 - 130 numbers (I recall Ken993 on PH has the 16/24 kit and likes it) for I imagine relatively modest outlay, although I think the ultimate test is a v--max type event when the motor gets red hot and is a real test of the integrity of a map. Also consider the drivability of a given tuning package .... throttle response, lag, etc etc

V

Martyn,

Very interesting information.

Judging from the Cargraphic site, the full RS tuning 520bhp bolt on kit would cost ~14K euros (excl. new intercooler) + labour going from a std 408bhp 993TT. I would venture to guess that a RUF Turbo R upgrade in Pfaffenhausen would run you ~20-25K euros short, everything included.

A couple of questions:

Does the 520bhp RS-tuning kit require a new intercooler (e.g the one listed on the website for 3K euros?). Will it also require a new clutch?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the "FS kit"? -> Does Faernsport have a kit of their own using 16/24 hybrids?

How do you perceive the RS-tuning kit as far as lag is concerned? I don't know if you have driven a WLS I 430bhp or a WLSII 450bhp turbo, but where would you put the RS-tuning 520bhp kit on the lag scale?

Have you done the 2wd conversion to your RS-tuning TT? I would guess your car is a total blast to drive

TIA

bb993tt

Viggo,

See here: http://www.fearnsport.co.uk/tuning.html. It's unclear what turbos are used on the FS460 kit, but "K-24 hybrid turbos" are part of the FS500 one.

b

JBL930

Viggo
The intercooler on the cargraphic site was shown by RS Tuning to actually be worse than the stock one, it isn't required for the 520bhp kit. I would also consider contacting Gert at Carnewal about sourcing most of the other bits from the kit elsewhere, for instance the cats, the silencers, the oil cooler etc etc.
You will have to have the Cams, ECU and K24RS turbos though for it to work right.

I have looked inside one of the Cargraphic silencers and it is simply an empty box, they have basically copied the stock silencer and completely gutted it internally. I got my cats from Gert and was told they are the same as the Cargraphic ones, I simply had a pair of stock cats cut out and put the 100 ones in. What i am getting at is you can knock quite a chunk off the kit price by sourcing some of the components yourself, you have to have the right cams, map and turbos though obviously

V

Thanks. The site doesn't really say that much it appears. The pricing seems quite attractive. Seems to be a lot of HP for the $$$.

JBH,

This is EXACTLY what I wanted to hear .

As per this thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turbo-forum/411355-how-is-a-97-ecu-chipped.html ,with Kevins new OBD2 programming tool: Shouldn't it be possible to "copy" the Cargraphic map from one ECU to another? Or is that hoping for too much? That would cut the cost of the package with another ~2.500EUR (replace DME).

If the mufflers are basically gutted stockers, then doing that as a DIY would be possible too. Do you have to use the cargraphic 100 cell sport cats or will any set of 100 cell sport cats do?

I would presume that as long as you keep the same backpressure as the cargraphic ones, the DME would work as if the cargraphic pipes were there.
Hypothetically, could you go with 100cell cats and muffler bypass? Gutted cans also provide some backpressure I guess, maybe the bypass is not possible..
We also know that the RUF auxilary oil cooler is the same product as the cargraphic one, but at a much lower price, so that also saves a few pennies.
And using the stock intercooler saves another 3.000+ Euros...The cams and the turbos would have to be cargraphic original from the best source available. Probably also the DME, if there is no other way around thatone.

It can probably be done at a much lower cost it seems. Just need to take some time to gather the stuff from the best sources.. "Powered by RS-tuning" for way less than "crazy money" sounds like the best thing you can do to your 993TT if you ask me...