Jean

Brad

I remember. This was perfect for a stage 2 but not for what you have now.

The pressure plate is very strong and could take you to 1100NM but you need a race clutch disc or double clutch plates. With the clutch disc I mentioned above you will be good for almost any 993TT and have almost street like pedal feel.

Spartan, if you are upgrading, you might as well put one of these 3.7kgs flywheel

Spartan

Thanks Jean! So if I'm running K24/18g hybrids, proto tuning, 1.1 - 1.2 bar with an Andial IC and mostly on the track I'm going to need the Sach disk with the part number 881864999973 correct? I don't think I'm putting down over 580 lbs although I'm sure my tuner would tell me different

Jean

Spartan

You are the man Jean, thanks for the help!

Jean

Welcome. 295 Euros + shipping gets you one. I am almost sure that from the US it will be cheaper.

Make sure you buy the full kit with the high clamping PP mentioned here. If you want to keep your dual mass flywheel, there is another option.

Spartan

I already have the RS lwfw but since they are so cheap and mine was possible damaged due to the current clutch (some 6 puck unit) breaking off a chunk I'll just get the entire set Best price I have with everything is around $2,250 USD and thats with a new rms and some other small bits included.

Jean

Yes buy the whole kit better, otherwise you would need to resurface the flywheel just in case and new PP bolts etc.. The FVD reference that was in my post might not be correct, that's why I deleted it, I don't want to speculate.

Kevin

Spartan, give me a ring. 360.805-9066 you might save yourself a few $$$

Here is some data for you folks..

The stock 993TT and 996TT/GT2 pressure plate yeilds a clamp force of 2250 ft lbs..

The Sachs Motorsports Race pressure plate yields 2700 ft lbs of clamp force.

One can modify the Sachs Motorsports Race plate to yeild over 3400 ft lbs of clamp force.

I have modified plates instock with the new 8 puck disks, designed to handle the output of the larger 3.8 engines..

Jean

Kevin, You are using the wrong units.

Kevin

Jean those are the breakaway measurements when applied force is used on the diaphragm.

It has nothing to do with engine torque.

Jean

Kevin,

Right, you are giving force numbers but using torque units.

Force numbers are irrelevant to this discussion unless you can also tell us what is the force that his engine puts on the assembly to know what are his needs. What you need is the torque capacity as stated in my post.

Guys, clutch voodoo is the next best thing after air intakes and intercooler end tanks and flow numbers, rarely anyone who sells them have a clue what they are talking about or know how to give accurate information to the customer about his exact needs, yet people buy based on fancy names and looks or track and forum bragging rights.

Overkill assemblies that sound great, wear out your components much faster and are uncomfortable for daily usage while bringing zero added benefits except a stiffer pedal feel and chatter.

Kevin

We can also address this another way..

While there are plenty of sponsors on this forum selling there clutch wares. I have taken the time test the actual pressure plates that are out on the marketplace and in our cars. It comes down to the whether or not one believes the numbers and who they are coming from.

Again one can also google "clutch clamp force" and read how the industry is rating the comparison of force between each product. One problem is, that with these fancy websites today you will see in print statements that preach, this Stage "X" combination allows superb holding power and maximum clutch life or Stage "Y" has "increased holding-capacity" So we ask what is that value??

One can also look at these various kits, and notice that as the "Stage" goes higher the clutch disk material changes. We go from a standard organic clutch disk, to a organic/metal disk, then we go to a hybrid kevlar, or similar compound, to a ceramic disk which is a gimic or trade name for "metal"

Many resellers of Porsche parts will grab the numbers from the 964RS parts list and sell these LWFW components to turbo owners, with a twist. They will insert a ceramic or puck style clutch disk that will allow more grip. But the side effect is a on off light switch. If you dig deeper, you will see that that the available clamp force of the 964 disk is infact less than the stock 993TT plate, I don't have my cheat sheet with me this morning (but it is infact closer to 1800 lbs pounds vs the stock 993TT/996TT/GT2>2250) You will find that the clutch system that you sold will last.. For awhile, as you are cursing the engagement time in split second on/off. The motivation to sell this system is done based on cost of cheaper components and a mix of cheap aftermarket parts.

One can step up to the the more expensive, Sach Motorsports Race components and typically these are the "baseline" kits that most German tuners sell, including myself. One can insert the GT3RS this disk has more metal wound in with the organic pads. It gives excellent pedal, and will last in most street turbo applications. Jean has recommended another Sach disk. It is also a very good disk, however, the drawback to this disk is the reduction of "spring" built into the clutch disk. The disk also has a Puck style arrangement of the disk pads. It is a very good disk, however for the street and on engines that have larger displacement, my opinion is that one should increase the clamp force and modify the Sach Motorsports Race pressure plate to the values that I have shown, and use the more street friendly metal sintered RS disk.

Don 911Q45 with his Andial 3.8 had clutch issues that needed to be addressed.

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turbo-forum/400287-umw-lwf.html

The car was driven on the street, but tracked heavily. It is like pulling a rabbit out of a hat trying to figure out what the previous installer or tuner installed on his flywheel. There is alot of myth and smoke and mirrors> German this, and special that. But if it fails, you have to provide something that will work.

The next thing to consider is price points and what you receive. There are aftermarket components and then we have genuine Sachs Race Engineering or Porsche Motorsports components. We also have, Aluminum flywheels, lightweight flywheels RS knock offs, aftermarket cheep clutch disks inserted in these kits. One should expect to pay more money for genuine Sach's components. Inserting US or imported aftermarket clutch parts into kits bring the price down. Ask for genuine Sachs Engineering components, then look at the quoted cost.

I have given the clamp force measurements for the factory pressure plates as a sound baseline. Use those numbers against stated engine torque outputs. We know that a engine developing "X" amount of torque will quickly destroy a stock TT clutch kit. A 3.8TT with "X" amount of torque will be to great for even the Sach's Race Engineering plate with a organic disk. We also know that a 964RS pressure plate will give way even sooner. The sad thing is that many of the clutch kits are purchased for the TT has that same "less" expensive plate sold in your new kit. And lastly try to stay away from Ceramic or copper puck disks, your left foot will Thank you. Please email me or call me 360.805-9066, I will gladly give you my opinions and feeling as to what is offered when it concerns your clutch options.

Jean

Kevin

I agree with most of your points regarding BS stages and the rest, however you did not answer the question about clamp force units of measurement and why and how you are using those force numbers to determine what the customer needs. Not many here (nor their tuners) would know what force numbers their engines exerce on the assembly.

Torque clamping ratings is what one needs to determine which clutch assembly to use, and nothing else.

As far as Don’s problem is concerned, it could have been resolved any of the two ways:

a- Using the upgraded PP part number 883082 999764 which would give the following torque clamping:

1- 565 lbs.ft if you are using an organic clutch disc. (street/track) part number 1878000802
2- 640 lbs.ft if you are using a modified organic plate (street/track) part number 881864999973 that I mentioned, full face, not puck style plate, and 100% OEM start performance.
3- 775 lbs.ft if you are using a sintered clutch plate (race) 4-6-8 puck metal

This is the one both TB993TT and I are using (Cargraphic)

b- Using the upgraded PP part number 88 3082 999 752 like the one Acropora has which would give;

1-500 lbs.ft if you are using an organic clutch disc. (street/track) # 1878000802
Not an option for a 3.8.
2- 580 lbs.ft if you are using a modified organic plate (street/track)# 881864999973
3- 640 lbs.ft if you are using a sintered clutch plate (race)


Option a.1 is what he chose I am guessing, which is great but more expensive than option b.2 which only requires a change in disc instead of PP, assuming Andial had already used the uprated PP 88 3082 999 752 (sure hope they did!!). This option is 50% cheaper than option a.1 and would not have noticed any difference in pedal feel from OEM.

The relationship between clutch disc friction coefficient and higher PP clamping force rating is exactly the same and proportional so they can be used the exact same way, either higher clamping force by 15% or higher friction component by 15%.

One issue of using very high clamping pressure plates is the fact they accelerate wear on the crankshaft throwout bearing as well so unless absolutely needed, a higher friction OEM feel disc is more advisable.

All of these options are widely available, people should just make sure they know what they are asking for and what they are getting from the vendors, it does not take much to decide exactly what they want based on their engine specs and ask specifically for that, at least they know they are not buying something that won’t work, nor end up paying more for something they did not need and that can add stress to their engine.

Oh! once you know all this and know what you want exactly, Kevin has some of the best prices

Kevin

Jean the only thing that we are in a disagreement over is, I'm trying to show a standardized measuring system of the actual pressure plate.. Yes, I understand that you are trying to place a engine output factor vs which pressure plate to purchase and disk combination.. Taking your car and doing 1/4 drag style launches will greatly reduce the mild clutch disks and for the street strip folks I would rather push them into a higher clamp force pressure plate. But a metal 6 puck disk is no fun for the street. (ceramic =metal>>Brass actually) If you are riding your foot on your clutch pedal, you will eat your TO bearing up regardless, the high clamp force is a minimal risk to your TO bearing.

You have to remember that as you increase the friction coefficient you directly effect the "time" in engagement. The light switch factor drastically come in to play. The power assisted clutch slave WILL make up for a higher clamp force pressure plate.

911/Q45

Just back from 3 days at the track. Andial used a stock 993tt pressure plate which resulted in slippage almost from the get go. Kevin's setup with the extra beefy spring option has worked great under all conditions and I couldn't be more pleased.