993TT S THE "S" for sale 630 miles
05-09-2008, 12:51 PM
#16
Instructor
Whilst I love the 965 ( My last dd was a 460hp 965 with Ruf Nurburgring suspension) I wasn't attempting to say the 965 S was better than any 993, I was merely venting about the course which Porsche took and the 993tt was the first one to just get loads of (already available) "bolt ons" and then given it's own model designation with the US version missing out of the best "bolt ons", the 450PS kit and the expensive weissach developed suspension kit which was a hybrid of 993 RS and GT2 parts.
Obviously Porsche trumped the 965 turbo S in a big way with the 993 GT2 which was a worthy successor as we all know !
If demeaning the car is discussing Porsches developement and giving accurate information about a model and its "provenance" then I apologise if it upsets you but it is purely my opinion that the 993tt S particularly in US "lite" spec is unworthy of the prices being asked - but people will and are making their own minds up
PS Scott stop eating that bloody corn and get off the fence
Obviously Porsche trumped the 965 turbo S in a big way with the 993 GT2 which was a worthy successor as we all know !
If demeaning the car is discussing Porsches developement and giving accurate information about a model and its "provenance" then I apologise if it upsets you but it is purely my opinion that the 993tt S particularly in US "lite" spec is unworthy of the prices being asked - but people will and are making their own minds up
PS Scott stop eating that bloody corn and get off the fence
05-09-2008, 01:05 PM
#17
Drifting
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Who me?
Well I believe that in late 1997 Gunter said to Klaus. "Klaus, we haf 187 left over 993tt. Was shall ve do wiz em?"
"Easy Gunter, vee put on some left over parts from the Sonderveiss department and sell them to the silly American for a ton of extra gelt! They'll buy ANYTHING!
Allesgeschenet!"
Man Paul's post took a sharp left turn!
Well I believe that in late 1997 Gunter said to Klaus. "Klaus, we haf 187 left over 993tt. Was shall ve do wiz em?"
"Easy Gunter, vee put on some left over parts from the Sonderveiss department and sell them to the silly American for a ton of extra gelt! They'll buy ANYTHING!
Allesgeschenet!"
Man Paul's post took a sharp left turn!
05-09-2008, 01:12 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Whether the S is worth a 50% or more premium to a non-S in the US is a good question. True, there are not a lot of differences that really matter that much. Certainly not enough to justify a 50% premium if all you care about is performance and the cost of replcating the S performance.
On the other hand, the same can be said about a lot of other special, limited production cars, and even Porsches. I would argue that the difference between a 997 GT3 RS and GT3 is similarly small, and yet look at the price difference between the RS and non-RS. More than 50%.
You can say that a 964 RS America is just a C2 with a little less insulation and no rear seat. Their performance is nearly identical. Yet, people pay up to 2x as much for an RS America as a C2. Why? I can recreate the RS for less money if I start with a C2.
It goes on and on. The point is that there were only 180 original Turbo Ss in the US. Probably fewer than 100 all-original examples remain. And they were the last and best (i.e., most evolved and fastest) of the air-cooled cars sold in the US. If you want the best, all-original, air-cooled Porsche sold in the US, the Turbo S is it. And a lot of people do want that. And the fact that you can save 33% by buying a non-S doesn't really matter at that point. For some people, even a 90% discount won't matter if what they want has already been decided. If they think a $180k 993TTS is a good deal, then what does it matter if you can get a similar 993TT for 80k?
I do like the concept of the 964 turbo S. But I don't believe that it is as fast or evolved as the 993 in stock form. Plus, while I have a NA 964, I think that the design of the 964 is less attractive and not as characteristic of 911s compared with the 993. I love my 964, but can't deny that 993s are better cars.
On the other hand, the same can be said about a lot of other special, limited production cars, and even Porsches. I would argue that the difference between a 997 GT3 RS and GT3 is similarly small, and yet look at the price difference between the RS and non-RS. More than 50%.
You can say that a 964 RS America is just a C2 with a little less insulation and no rear seat. Their performance is nearly identical. Yet, people pay up to 2x as much for an RS America as a C2. Why? I can recreate the RS for less money if I start with a C2.
It goes on and on. The point is that there were only 180 original Turbo Ss in the US. Probably fewer than 100 all-original examples remain. And they were the last and best (i.e., most evolved and fastest) of the air-cooled cars sold in the US. If you want the best, all-original, air-cooled Porsche sold in the US, the Turbo S is it. And a lot of people do want that. And the fact that you can save 33% by buying a non-S doesn't really matter at that point. For some people, even a 90% discount won't matter if what they want has already been decided. If they think a $180k 993TTS is a good deal, then what does it matter if you can get a similar 993TT for 80k?
I do like the concept of the 964 turbo S. But I don't believe that it is as fast or evolved as the 993 in stock form. Plus, while I have a NA 964, I think that the design of the 964 is less attractive and not as characteristic of 911s compared with the 993. I love my 964, but can't deny that 993s are better cars.
Last edited by 993TurboS; 05-09-2008 at 01:17 PM. Reason: typos
05-09-2008, 01:51 PM
#19
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BTW...we are talking 964 3.3 turbo s...not the later 3.6 turbo s which was not lightweight. And the 3.3 was never legal in the U.S. though the 3.6 was...most 3.6s cars had the flatnose option as compared to the regular front (package cars).
RT
I love them all!
RT
I love them all!
05-09-2008, 02:36 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Ok my .02. My brother just sold his 94 Signal Green bone stock 3.6 turbo for 84k. That was because the guy made him an offer and he accepted. After the fact he could have sold it for higher but my brother is a man of his word. My point.....the only thing that separated his car from others (going for far less money) with the same mileage and condition is the color. The limited number of these cars will make them command a much higher premium. Regardless of how many "bits" they have different over the regular tt. How much? That is another question. Exclusivity and exclusivity alone has a price. 
05-09-2008, 04:42 PM
#21
I feel compelled to share my opinion on this since I was around and inthe market mid/late 90s when the "S" was brought out....
The 965 turbo S was the last REAL "S" turbo model, it was fully lightened (like the 964RS) and had a decent power upgrade from 330hp to 381hp with a nicely reworked engine including cams, turbo, clutch, flywheel, injection valves, single fan motor. They got the weight down by 180kg to 1290kg (and that was a real weight unlike the stupid quoted weights Porsche give now days for the likes of the 997GT3 !)
The suspension was mostly 964RS.....
The 965 Turbo S was the last real "Turbo S" from Porsche......
Porsche developed varioius bits for the 993 turbo, the aero kit, a comprehensive sport suspension kit (which could be factory fitted or retro fitted -parts cost ~$16K) various bits from the Techart catalogue including front brake cooling air scoops into the front bumper and the scoops into the rear arches (which had zero function other than looks)...
For me this era marked the begining of the modern Porsche cynical marketing machine (which continues famously today) - They decided to have an "S" model 993tt and basically stuck ALL the extras they had developed over the last couple of years onto the car, covered everything in leather and painted the stock brake calipers yellow (you didn't even get the better RS calipers !!)
In the UK they also ramped the price up to make them a nice profit on the "bolt on" S..... At the time a friend of mine who usually had all the latest metal could not bring himself to pay the massive premium and specced a turbo with all the weissach bits and got him self a factory built "S" spec car without the "S" badge for $40K less....
To really insult its customers Porsche then took out the 450hp engine bits and the expensive sports suspension and gave the US market the 993 turbo S "lite" whose difference to the stock car was limited to ECU, oil cooler and twin exhaust tips, the areokit, caliper colour, shiny stock wheels, Techart bits, and lots of leather - the damn thing was so loaded that it actually was heavier than the stock turbo
To me a 965 "S" would be a special and valuable car, but the 993 tt S marks an unpleasant turning point in Porsche's marketing strategies
BTW good luck for your friends sale, sounds like a great "as new" car
The 965 turbo S was the last REAL "S" turbo model, it was fully lightened (like the 964RS) and had a decent power upgrade from 330hp to 381hp with a nicely reworked engine including cams, turbo, clutch, flywheel, injection valves, single fan motor. They got the weight down by 180kg to 1290kg (and that was a real weight unlike the stupid quoted weights Porsche give now days for the likes of the 997GT3 !)
The suspension was mostly 964RS.....
The 965 Turbo S was the last real "Turbo S" from Porsche......
Porsche developed varioius bits for the 993 turbo, the aero kit, a comprehensive sport suspension kit (which could be factory fitted or retro fitted -parts cost ~$16K) various bits from the Techart catalogue including front brake cooling air scoops into the front bumper and the scoops into the rear arches (which had zero function other than looks)...
For me this era marked the begining of the modern Porsche cynical marketing machine (which continues famously today) - They decided to have an "S" model 993tt and basically stuck ALL the extras they had developed over the last couple of years onto the car, covered everything in leather and painted the stock brake calipers yellow (you didn't even get the better RS calipers !!)
In the UK they also ramped the price up to make them a nice profit on the "bolt on" S..... At the time a friend of mine who usually had all the latest metal could not bring himself to pay the massive premium and specced a turbo with all the weissach bits and got him self a factory built "S" spec car without the "S" badge for $40K less....
To really insult its customers Porsche then took out the 450hp engine bits and the expensive sports suspension and gave the US market the 993 turbo S "lite" whose difference to the stock car was limited to ECU, oil cooler and twin exhaust tips, the areokit, caliper colour, shiny stock wheels, Techart bits, and lots of leather - the damn thing was so loaded that it actually was heavier than the stock turbo
To me a 965 "S" would be a special and valuable car, but the 993 tt S marks an unpleasant turning point in Porsche's marketing strategies
BTW good luck for your friends sale, sounds like a great "as new" car
05-09-2008, 05:48 PM
#22
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Come on Toby, in the US we like the 993TT "S" just for the extra hand stiched leather, and the phone console>> but more importantly the fake air inlets in the quarter panels
05-09-2008, 09:58 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
That is funny, but I can list about 50 things on every 911 that are form over function. I guess it is okay to say a silver car is worth more than a magenta one with a red interior, but not okay to say that leather is better than plastic.
05-09-2008, 10:59 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
And I certainly don't mean to denigrate the 993TTS, since that and the 993TT are my all-time, all-'round favorite cars-well, not including the 993GT2. But I wish Porsche had made the 993TTS a luxury version of the GT2. And for anyone on this thread in the market for a 993TT of any iteration-TT, TTS, GT2-don't hold back a purchase decision due merely to our rants on Porsche design and marketing strategy....
05-10-2008, 07:49 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by Al
don't hold back a purchase decision due merely to our rants on Porsche design and marketing strategy..
05-10-2008, 07:58 AM
#28
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Just incase ttS guys missed this, here is a link to the only UK ttS road test carried out in the late 90's - it is for the Euro 450PS version...
Check out the price: £130K or $260 US at current rates - about the same as a 997GT2 today - Base 993tt was £95K in those days and Porsche charged £35K for the extras
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turbo-forum/330707-road-test-993-turbo-s-450ps.html
Check out the price: £130K or $260 US at current rates - about the same as a 997GT2 today - Base 993tt was £95K in those days and Porsche charged £35K for the extras
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turbo-forum/330707-road-test-993-turbo-s-450ps.html
05-10-2008, 04:22 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
I don't see this being comparable to the 993tt/S situation. The RS is specifically equipped for track days with cage, wider track, Plexiglass rear window and supposedly a fewer kg less weight wheras the stock GT3 is supposed to be useable as a daily driver - this is not the same situation as the 993tt vs ttS (which particularly for the US market was just a raid of the "extras" catalogue) although you are right Porsche still likes to charge a lot of $$$$ for minor differences
The US RS has nearly identical performance to the US GT3, has a fancy, superficial, paint job and stickers, and about two things that differentiate it from the GT3. Sounds about like the same situation with the 993TT and 993TTS.
Furthermore, the fact that the TTS was not built as a track car makes the comparison all the more favorable to the TTS over the GT3RS. The TTS was built as a road car, so the extra 20 pounds or leather (probably more like 2 pounds) on a 3000+ pound car are meaningless.. On the other hand, the RS is supposed to be a track car, and there are probably hundreds of pounds of useless crap on that car that could be taken out to enhance performance. There is no way you can look at that RS interior and tell me that there are not dozen of things in there that are form over function (esp. since the ostensible funtion of the RS is the track). On the other hand, the purpose of the TTS is a street car, where form is a large part OF the function.
I like how, when comparing the two, you use the european RS and compare it to the US TTS. That is obviously apples to oranges. If you compare GT3 vs RS and TT vs TTS and keep the comparison in the same market, I think that the argument against the RS premium is as strong or stronger than the argument against the TTS premium, esp. given the relative production numbers.
Last edited by 993TurboS; 05-10-2008 at 04:24 PM. Reason: typos
05-10-2008, 05:23 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
In case anyone has not seen it, here is the only review of the US 1997 Turbo S that I have read that was written at the time:
http://members.rennlist.org/951_race...s911TurboS.pdf
http://members.rennlist.org/951_race...s911TurboS.pdf