Is the RUF Turbo R Conversion worth the Money?
08-13-2007, 04:59 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Ima2nr
I disagree... Porsche builds bodies only and "sells them to RUF" to build complete cars from, Porsche also suppies all the other "bits" that RUF needs to complete a RUF VIN # chassie. To my knoweledge Porsche does not have this relationship with any other car manufaturer in the world. Since 1983 RUF has been building sports cars with a RUF VIN number and all of those cars have been bsaed on the Porsche 911 Platform. that means Porsche and RUF have had a business relationship for nearly 25 years ... that is a pretty big "nod" in my opinion. It is true (to my knoweledge) RUF is an independant vehicle manufacturer and has never been financially supported by Porsche, but with out the "nod" I mentioned I also don't believe another RUF porsche based chassie would ever roll off that assymbly line. THIS IS WHY RUF IS (in my opinion) A "PEDIGREE" CAR..
Of course they buy stuff from Porsche and have done for many years just like many others. The fact that they cleverley went for the German "manufacturer" status was another good move which a couple of others have followed, (Techart and 9ff) but it is just a supplier relationship.
I think people on here (probably me included) think that Porsche heads know about all the tuning stuff which goes on but on recent evidence I have encountered they don't and are not really interested, they just want to make and sell what THEY consider to be the best cars.
For the 993tt engine consider the tolerances Porsche work to and then consider the Ruf offering.
There was a clue in my first post. If Porsche were to build a 490hp 993tt engine it would at the very least include proper head sealing to cope with the higher boost pressures, twin plug and appropriate intercooling....
Originally Posted by Ima2nr
IMPORTANT NOTE! "I'm not flamin' - I'm just explaining" ----this is NOT a "retaliation post". I'm just long winded sometimes! there are worse problems one could have in life :-)..
it is good to hear various opinions...
Originally Posted by Ima2nr
please realize I am not an expert on all the "other" tuners out there(and did not claim to be), and I don't disagree with anything you said as it was all purly your opinion. And everything I offered up was just my personal opinion's based on my past and present experiences owning two diffrent 993's built by 2 of the three mentioned tuners. (if you are a tuner for the 993, don't be offended that I don't know who you are, and MY lack of mentioning your existence is not a condemnation to your skill or talent. you actually may be the best tuner that has ever turned a wrench... It just means I personally don't know who you are)..
Originally Posted by Ima2nr
the original posters question was titiled "is the RUF TURBO R worth the Money?" --
if you will "re-read" my post you might derive that I actually TRIED to answer that specific question... and point the poster in the direction that they were looking for.
And I thought I actually told the original poster that if he wanted a solid, fast strong "pedigree" car them buy the RUF conversion. (BTW - this is exactly what I did... I own a RUF and most here will also agree RUF does not advertise the most impressive HP claims either).
I also told the poster (still only my opinion) that if they wanted a ***** to the walls FAST 993tt for cheap the go find a used "protomotive tuned" car for sale. (this related to the "is it worth the money?" part of his question. what does the buyer "expect" for the money? is he looking for "quick acceleration" or "explosive acceleration"?)
also realize that the "buy a used proto car" statement does not send business to protmotive, quite the opposite... protomotive gets paid to buid the car, not every time it resells, and sells again. (FWIW- I bought my 993tt protomotive conversion used for 60k 3 years ago! I have kicked my self repeatedly for selling it. after it was gone I have owned a 1997 Ferrari 355B, a 2005 Lambo Gallardo wth a Kressigg race exhaust, and the RUF TURBO R... and I still have not "replaced" the rocketship acceleration that "used protomotive car" gave me for only 60k. that was the cheapest "definetly worth the money" kind of thrill ride!.
if you will "re-read" my post you might derive that I actually TRIED to answer that specific question... and point the poster in the direction that they were looking for.
And I thought I actually told the original poster that if he wanted a solid, fast strong "pedigree" car them buy the RUF conversion. (BTW - this is exactly what I did... I own a RUF and most here will also agree RUF does not advertise the most impressive HP claims either).
I also told the poster (still only my opinion) that if they wanted a ***** to the walls FAST 993tt for cheap the go find a used "protomotive tuned" car for sale. (this related to the "is it worth the money?" part of his question. what does the buyer "expect" for the money? is he looking for "quick acceleration" or "explosive acceleration"?)
also realize that the "buy a used proto car" statement does not send business to protmotive, quite the opposite... protomotive gets paid to buid the car, not every time it resells, and sells again. (FWIW- I bought my 993tt protomotive conversion used for 60k 3 years ago! I have kicked my self repeatedly for selling it. after it was gone I have owned a 1997 Ferrari 355B, a 2005 Lambo Gallardo wth a Kressigg race exhaust, and the RUF TURBO R... and I still have not "replaced" the rocketship acceleration that "used protomotive car" gave me for only 60k. that was the cheapest "definetly worth the money" kind of thrill ride!.
Originally Posted by Ima2nr
isn't your own comment not "high on praise and lite on substance" and not directly trying to answer the posters question?!.
although there is plenty of chat on here on UMW's stage 1 (or is it 2) 993tt package..
Originally Posted by Ima2nr
again, my coments were only opinionated answers to the original question (and I did add the discalimer thing that my car WAS currently being worked on by Todd)
and yes... for the record I do not drive my car on the track under high boost "sustained" for 3 hours straight (and I never expect too either). I only want my car to "accelerate faster" from 60-120 MPH than the guy in the (insert any vehicle type here) next to me on the road. that is probably LESS than a 6 second contest of acceleration... heat soak is not even a worry on my list. I do live in the USA, and my car gets to 180 way too fast to sustain that kind of speed since there is no autoban here... all we have are soccer-mom minivan drivers that think it is their personal mission in life to inforce the speed limit on other motorist by getting in the fast lane (on a 16 lane super expressway) and going exactly the posted speed limit to slow others down. (not much of a "sustained speed nirvanna" here in Atlanta Ga)?.
and yes... for the record I do not drive my car on the track under high boost "sustained" for 3 hours straight (and I never expect too either). I only want my car to "accelerate faster" from 60-120 MPH than the guy in the (insert any vehicle type here) next to me on the road. that is probably LESS than a 6 second contest of acceleration... heat soak is not even a worry on my list. I do live in the USA, and my car gets to 180 way too fast to sustain that kind of speed since there is no autoban here... all we have are soccer-mom minivan drivers that think it is their personal mission in life to inforce the speed limit on other motorist by getting in the fast lane (on a 16 lane super expressway) and going exactly the posted speed limit to slow others down. (not much of a "sustained speed nirvanna" here in Atlanta Ga)?.
) will definately require flame ring head sealing, Carrillo (or similar) rods, LWFW with special clutch and without effective intercooling your torque will last about 1.5 seconds before the ECU snatches your timing away and pulls your boost.
Originally Posted by Ima2nr
and to add a final thought for the original poster's question - no matter what yuo do to make a 993tt more powerful, RUF or "other"... (TB993tt's 1st post addressed this and I agree with him strongly). you will need to be sure all your "other" componets are updated for the extra torque you plan on laying down on the pavement... think upgraded clutch, brakes to slow you back down, or any other drivetrain component that could be weak like the foremetioned "valves springs" tha it seems were an issue at some point for Phelix's 993tt. (I have never spoken with either TB9933tt or Phelix, I have only derived Phelix had that issue from the previous post)..
08-14-2007, 12:47 AM
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Fair comment, I would add that it is still not quite as simple that adding another 100lb/ft to a Ruf engine will just mean you can't sustain your 204mph autobahn speed ! The boost needed for a real 786NM (478lb/ft + your 100 ) will definately require flame ring head sealing, Carrillo (or similar) rods, LWFW with special clutch and without effective intercooling your torque will last about 1.5 seconds before the ECU snatches your timing away and pulls your boost.
FWIW- I know your right with all that flame ring and carillo rod talk... it's not the money that keeps one humble... just the 6-9 months "down time" waiting on someone to build your dreams into reality.... I do actually have the lightweight clutch thing already though.
seriously, when I get my car back in a few weeks, I need to do this 80-130mph thing and see where I stand... (never hurts to look in the mirror to see what you look like)
Thanks for the soapbox... I hope somebody reads it besides me and TB993tt (and or moderator Steve (aka ca993twin) j/k!!!
08-14-2007, 11:57 AM
#33
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Ima2nr, RUF or not, no cheating 
last time I checked it was a 60-130mph!
BTW I always suspected that TB993TT was a Euro tuner in disguise!
Most of the tuners sell kits that are developped by third party software gurus who work and live "incognito" and no one knows about them. Don't be surprised if the best out there did not develop their products in house. RUF is one of them, so are most of the well respected (European and US) and known ones. This in fact makes their products very succeful, as long as they work hand in hand with those gurus in the development of hardware/software and the "fit" between them and provide them with the right tools to do the job properly (dyno etc..)
Few are the ones who do it all in -house, while I personally prefer that route, it is only as good as their years of experience of trial and error that are needed to make them trustworthy. A thorough background check on "years in service" building and tuning Porsche engines is always a smart thing to do, internet hype is often very misleading...
The reason I am posting this is because I also believe that RUF has no special treatment with Porsche other than a strict supplier / customer relationship (maybe there is some love being spread around with HP Lieb in there ) however their products are highly succesful without that support, it is not needed, experience in the Porsche world (many years of it) takes over, so are the tools and resources put forward to develop their products be it internal or external.
last time I checked it was a 60-130mph! BTW I always suspected that TB993TT was a Euro tuner in disguise!
Most of the tuners sell kits that are developped by third party software gurus who work and live "incognito" and no one knows about them. Don't be surprised if the best out there did not develop their products in house. RUF is one of them, so are most of the well respected (European and US) and known ones. This in fact makes their products very succeful, as long as they work hand in hand with those gurus in the development of hardware/software and the "fit" between them and provide them with the right tools to do the job properly (dyno etc..)
Few are the ones who do it all in -house, while I personally prefer that route, it is only as good as their years of experience of trial and error that are needed to make them trustworthy. A thorough background check on "years in service" building and tuning Porsche engines is always a smart thing to do, internet hype is often very misleading...
The reason I am posting this is because I also believe that RUF has no special treatment with Porsche other than a strict supplier / customer relationship (maybe there is some love being spread around with HP Lieb in there
) however their products are highly succesful without that support, it is not needed, experience in the Porsche world (many years of it) takes over, so are the tools and resources put forward to develop their products be it internal or external.
08-16-2007, 01:38 AM
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Jean...
my car is still refuses to go less than 75 miles per hour... so the 80-130 test will be all I can subject her too. I'm sure some calculus wizard here will find a way to "back into the numbers" and validate my victory when I set a new record!
(thanks for setting me straight... I still want to do my 60-130 run to compare myself)
FWIW - my wife made me shave... I'm no dumby... she's the boss and I'm lucky to be her employee ;-)
my car is still refuses to go less than 75 miles per hour... so the 80-130 test will be all I can subject her too. I'm sure some calculus wizard here will find a way to "back into the numbers" and validate my victory when I set a new record!
(thanks for setting me straight... I still want to do my 60-130 run to compare myself)
FWIW - my wife made me shave... I'm no dumby... she's the boss and I'm lucky to be her employee ;-)
08-16-2007, 06:11 AM
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Ima2nr
I uncharactaristically purschased 911 P World at the aiport yesterday.
Take below as the journalist's interpretation of what Alois said (we all know some of the cr&p journos can come up with !)
I uncharactaristically purschased 911 P World at the aiport yesterday.
Take below as the journalist's interpretation of what Alois said (we all know some of the cr&p journos can come up with !)
08-17-2007, 04:05 PM
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What about an Andial 3.8 or they don't do these anymore?
As for the RUFs those are fine cars too! Do the majority of you guys really use all that power on the street/track? I'm sure Jean does...but anyone else?
As for the RUFs those are fine cars too! Do the majority of you guys really use all that power on the street/track? I'm sure Jean does...but anyone else?
08-17-2007, 04:33 PM
#37
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Andial is done building 3.8s FVD will still do them, I think.
Regarding horsepower... if you can't black out due to the excessive G-forces, you haven't got enough HP. Just kidding, of course. I routinely stomp on my throttle, but only for short bursts while I try to keep the car sub-sonic. I'm pretty paranoid about tickets and such. Do I actually "need" that extra HP... of course not... a stock 993TT is just fine and dandy. We're just all a little crazy.
Regarding horsepower... if you can't black out due to the excessive G-forces, you haven't got enough HP. Just kidding, of course. I routinely stomp on my throttle, but only for short bursts while I try to keep the car sub-sonic. I'm pretty paranoid about tickets and such. Do I actually "need" that extra HP... of course not... a stock 993TT is just fine and dandy. We're just all a little crazy.
08-17-2007, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ca993twin
Regarding horsepower... if you can't black out due to the excessive G-forces, you haven't got enough HP. Just kidding, of course.
08-21-2007, 10:01 PM
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thanks for the great RUF article!
I stand corrected... RUF is a pedigree car that has a love hate relationship with Porsche (vs the factory nod) -only because Porsche "thinks" the car is already sufficent, and RUF thinks it has much more potential...
:-) I love this place!
I stand corrected... RUF is a pedigree car that has a love hate relationship with Porsche (vs the factory nod) -only because Porsche "thinks" the car is already sufficent, and RUF thinks it has much more potential...
:-) I love this place!
08-22-2007, 05:07 AM
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thanks for the great RUF article!
I stand corrected... RUF is a pedigree car that has a love hate relationship with Porsche (vs the factory nod) -only because Porsche "thinks" the car is already sufficent, and RUF thinks it has much more potential...
:-) I love this place!
I stand corrected... RUF is a pedigree car that has a love hate relationship with Porsche (vs the factory nod) -only because Porsche "thinks" the car is already sufficent, and RUF thinks it has much more potential...
:-) I love this place!
I think the bit you highlighted Porsche "thinks" the car is already sufficent is a very strong reason why Porsche frown on ANY tuner - they have a huge self belief that the car they developed and signed off is as "perfect" as can be....
Someone was enquiring on my behalf to a couple of guys involved in the development of the CGT, they were asked what they thought of tuning the CGT to ~690hp ?
They were quite adamant and almost insulted since they said that the CGT had been tested with many levels of power, up to 900hp @ 9000 rpm (may be an exageration !) and it was signed off with the perfect balance......
08-22-2007, 06:26 AM
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Great debate
The valve spring issue TB alluded to was with my engine. Basically the CEL light would come on frequently when the engine ripped through peak torque. After much head scratching, RS mentioned to the shop over here that they always changed valve springs on a new build, a new set of springs later, all was well. Hence my original springs with 63k miles on were not up to the job of handling the increased outputs of the engine.
The valve spring issue TB alluded to was with my engine. Basically the CEL light would come on frequently when the engine ripped through peak torque. After much head scratching, RS mentioned to the shop over here that they always changed valve springs on a new build, a new set of springs later, all was well. Hence my original springs with 63k miles on were not up to the job of handling the increased outputs of the engine.
08-23-2007, 01:38 AM
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how come the valve springs made the check engine light come on? that sounds mechanical, not electrical... I'm not questioning what you say is true, I just want to understand how... maybe that will allow us to create a "test" to determine if the rest of us need the valve springs replaced also!
for example... if their was a "sensor" that detected weak valve springs already tied to the ECU... then we could (in my make-believe example) hook a multimeter up to the sensor and compare readings to see if "everybody elses" valve spring were strong or need replacing!
can you help explain how the valve springs can set off the check engine light? that info could change everything.... cool.
for example... if their was a "sensor" that detected weak valve springs already tied to the ECU... then we could (in my make-believe example) hook a multimeter up to the sensor and compare readings to see if "everybody elses" valve spring were strong or need replacing!
can you help explain how the valve springs can set off the check engine light? that info could change everything.... cool.
08-23-2007, 01:42 AM
#45
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Kevin,
My guess is that weak valve springs will allow the valves to "float" and that will allow mixing of the intake and exhaust gases which may trigger an emissions code. No special sensors. But I await an expert.
My guess is that weak valve springs will allow the valves to "float" and that will allow mixing of the intake and exhaust gases which may trigger an emissions code. No special sensors. But I await an expert.