comparing different dyno curves
12-28-2005, 12:12 PM
#16
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Sorry for dumb question..
what is TS? is it Twin Plug??
Ruf gave up on Twin Plug in air cooled twin turbo motors and using
motronic controller ???
Is LAT's CTR-2 motor a twin plug ??
what is TS? is it Twin Plug??
Ruf gave up on Twin Plug in air cooled twin turbo motors and using
motronic controller ???
Is LAT's CTR-2 motor a twin plug ??
12-28-2005, 12:33 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by TB993tt
The comparison of my 522hp K24RS turbo TS motor with MODS single spark is not quite as straight forward as it seems.
MODs motor has the latest 127mm race cats (only available in last 2 years) together with big piping and race C/G mufflers. My 522 motor had smaller 100cell cats and piping and "sport" C/G mufflers - this set up makes a big difference at the top end
Also my 522hp engine was dynoed with the TTP/FVD/CG intercooler which is worse than stock.
MODs motor has the latest 127mm race cats (only available in last 2 years) together with big piping and race C/G mufflers. My 522 motor had smaller 100cell cats and piping and "sport" C/G mufflers - this set up makes a big difference at the top end
Also my 522hp engine was dynoed with the TTP/FVD/CG intercooler which is worse than stock.
12-28-2005, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickard 993 Turbo
Why talk about 91 oct fuel, i can't understand people that not run the best pump fuel avaibly
So this 98 oct would be good for tuned single plug 993TT..
12-28-2005, 03:48 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by Kevin
Steve the numbers for the twin turbo are a little different than a NA 993 engine. When you run lets say 91 octane a 1bar boost with my Stage 2 Z/C turbochargers, the knock counts increase from 22-24 degrees.. However, peak torque is at 28 degrees (with all conditions being perfect).. However, knock is raising it's ugly head.. The end result is timing being pulled (less torque, less power). If one runs higher octane, more timing can be achieved to try to obtain the peak torque number.. Or with the twin plug 993 Motronic turbo engine one can run higher boost levels and timing levels with lower grades of fuel (realize that your not near the peak torque number). Or one can run timing close to peak torque number, with lower knock counts, with higher margins of safety, which yields maximum torque..
Right on, sir and I totally agree,....
I simply needed to clarify (for anyone doing the upgrade) that twin-ignition operation usually required less overall ignition timing than single-plug operation and thats held true on all 911's; turbocharged or N/A.
Without a doubt, Motronic's knock-sensing feedback optimizes ignition timing for a whole range of conditions such as you described, but we refrain from adding any ignition timing for a twin-plug ECU remap since its not needed and it keeps the knock counts at the background level.
The only exception that I can think of would be for the exclusive use of race gas.
12-28-2005, 04:14 PM
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As the experts said, twin plug system makes possible to boost more and gives more safety margin against detonation.
However, comparing 2nd picture, we can see that similar power levels can be achieved with much cheaper single plug system when choosing right tuning parts combination.
But like Miles965uk also asked, what will be additional cost for complete twin plug system?
And can this be done "DIY", like machining second plug holes to heads and changing twin coil system, what else, suggestions?
However, comparing 2nd picture, we can see that similar power levels can be achieved with much cheaper single plug system when choosing right tuning parts combination.
But like Miles965uk also asked, what will be additional cost for complete twin plug system?
And can this be done "DIY", like machining second plug holes to heads and changing twin coil system, what else, suggestions?
12-28-2005, 04:20 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by js-911
However, comparing 2nd picture, we can see that similar power levels can be achieved with much cheaper single plug system when choosing right tuning parts combination.?
12-28-2005, 06:34 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by 911/Q45
In CA 91 octane is the best that is readily available. I believe Euro 95 and 98 are measured differently and equate to about US 91 and 93.
Yes that's true
Ouer 98oct is the same as yours 93, but we now have 99oct here, shell V power
12-28-2005, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TB993tt
If you read what I posted, the dyno sheet does not show the full picture - twin plug will ALWAYS allow a Motronic 993tt motor to achieve more torque on the road - this makes the motor different from a single plug since in use one is always taking advantage of overboost. This does NOT show on the dyno sheet.
But, I mean that if the target is about 520hp/700Nm, it is not necessary to go with expensive twin plug system to get these nice torque curves.
btw. I found interested comments by Jean, from topic "993TT engine vs. 993NA engine" :
"..twin-plugging the head (drilling the holes) costs less than $500..
..You can get a used dual distributor or RSR and coils and lower rocker cover and won't cost much, overall you can get a full twin plug system for less than $2k.."
Is this "offer" still valid
Can "Twin Plug owners" tell what parts are needed and is this conversation so simple?
12-28-2005, 06:54 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by js-911
Yes, I have read and even understood that
But, I mean that if the target is about 520hp/700Nm, it is not necessary to go with expensive twin plug system to get these nice torque curves.
btw. I found interested comments by Jean, from topic "993TT engine vs. 993NA engine" :
"..twin-plugging the head (drilling the holes) costs less than $500..
..You can get a used dual distributor or RSR and coils and lower rocker cover and won't cost much, overall you can get a full twin plug system for less than $2k.."
Is this "offer" still valid
Can "Twin Plug owners" tell what parts are needed and is this conversation so simple?
But, I mean that if the target is about 520hp/700Nm, it is not necessary to go with expensive twin plug system to get these nice torque curves.
btw. I found interested comments by Jean, from topic "993TT engine vs. 993NA engine" :
"..twin-plugging the head (drilling the holes) costs less than $500..
..You can get a used dual distributor or RSR and coils and lower rocker cover and won't cost much, overall you can get a full twin plug system for less than $2k.."
Is this "offer" still valid
Can "Twin Plug owners" tell what parts are needed and is this conversation so simple?
12-28-2005, 10:06 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
So, the ecu would have to be mapped and work in conjunction with a twin plugged engine? So, for Ruf turbo-R cars it would be incompatible to do the twin plug without changing ecu parameters......right? It makes sense to me.
I would think somebody like Todd Knighton will be able to correctly map a 1997 ecu to work appropriately with twin plugged engines. Sounds like a task.
Jaime
I would think somebody like Todd Knighton will be able to correctly map a 1997 ecu to work appropriately with twin plugged engines. Sounds like a task.
Jaime
12-28-2005, 10:21 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by ttAmerica RoadsterAWD
So, the ecu would have to be mapped and work in conjunction with a twin plugged engine? So, for Ruf turbo-R cars it would be incompatible to do the twin plug without changing ecu parameters......right? It makes sense to me.
I would think somebody like Todd Knighton will be able to correctly map a 1997 ecu to work appropriately with twin plugged engines. Sounds like a task.
Jaime
I would think somebody like Todd Knighton will be able to correctly map a 1997 ecu to work appropriately with twin plugged engines. Sounds like a task.
Jaime
Yessir, the ignition mapping should be changed for twin-ignition operation.
Todd (as well as some others) are fully capable of remapping one of these ECU's should one decide to do these modifications.
12-28-2005, 10:25 PM
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Folks, I have been working on a simple solution to twin plug the 993TT.. I will be posting some mods for a couple of engine builds..
First off, any 964 or 993NA distributor will work.. Buy them used and replace the drive belt in them.
2nd, the ECU that come in my engine kits have the ability to enable the ignitor for the second distributor.. Folks it's very similar to the NA engines.. One would have to run a trace wire to the ECU.. Rumor has it that there is a spare wire in the wiring harness
At this time one would address the programming for the ECU and allowing dual mapping options...
3.. To retain the heat exchangers function the factory rear crossover duct needs to be cut and clearanced for the added distributor..
4. One has to purchase new lower valve covers from a 993 NA car..
5. I can provide the service to twin plug the cylinder heads, very reasonable...
6. The heat shield at #4 cylinder/valve cover will need to me cut/welded/modified to allow for the plug wire. The turbocharger turbine housing heat shield is also in the way, and needs modified. One can install the 993 NA plug wires or Magnacore wires..
7. At this time one can install flame rings, pictures to come on that subject...
First off, any 964 or 993NA distributor will work.. Buy them used and replace the drive belt in them.
2nd, the ECU that come in my engine kits have the ability to enable the ignitor for the second distributor.. Folks it's very similar to the NA engines.. One would have to run a trace wire to the ECU.. Rumor has it that there is a spare wire in the wiring harness
At this time one would address the programming for the ECU and allowing dual mapping options...3.. To retain the heat exchangers function the factory rear crossover duct needs to be cut and clearanced for the added distributor..
4. One has to purchase new lower valve covers from a 993 NA car..
5. I can provide the service to twin plug the cylinder heads, very reasonable...
6. The heat shield at #4 cylinder/valve cover will need to me cut/welded/modified to allow for the plug wire. The turbocharger turbine housing heat shield is also in the way, and needs modified. One can install the 993 NA plug wires or Magnacore wires..
7. At this time one can install flame rings, pictures to come on that subject...
12-28-2005, 11:15 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by Kevin
Folks, I have been working on a simple solution to twin plug the 993TT.. I will be posting some mods for a couple of engine builds..
First off, any 964 or 993NA distributor will work.. Buy them used and replace the drive belt in them.
2nd, the ECU that come in my engine kits have the ability to enable the ignitor for the second distributor.. Folks it's very similar to the NA engines.. One would have to run a trace wire to the ECU.. Rumor has it that there is a spare wire in the wiring harness At this time one would address the programming for the ECU and allowing dual mapping options...
3.. To retain the heat exchangers function the factory rear crossover duct needs to be cut and clearanced for the added distributor..
4. One has to purchase new lower valve covers from a 993 NA car..
5. I can provide the service to twin plug the cylinder heads, very reasonable...
6. The heat shield at #4 cylinder/valve cover will need to me cut/welded/modified to allow for the plug wire. The turbocharger turbine housing heat shield is also in the way, and needs modified. One can install the 993 NA plug wires or Magnacore wires..
7. At this time one can install flame rings, pictures to come on that subject...
First off, any 964 or 993NA distributor will work.. Buy them used and replace the drive belt in them.
2nd, the ECU that come in my engine kits have the ability to enable the ignitor for the second distributor.. Folks it's very similar to the NA engines.. One would have to run a trace wire to the ECU.. Rumor has it that there is a spare wire in the wiring harness
At this time one would address the programming for the ECU and allowing dual mapping options...3.. To retain the heat exchangers function the factory rear crossover duct needs to be cut and clearanced for the added distributor..
4. One has to purchase new lower valve covers from a 993 NA car..
5. I can provide the service to twin plug the cylinder heads, very reasonable...
6. The heat shield at #4 cylinder/valve cover will need to me cut/welded/modified to allow for the plug wire. The turbocharger turbine housing heat shield is also in the way, and needs modified. One can install the 993 NA plug wires or Magnacore wires..
7. At this time one can install flame rings, pictures to come on that subject...
