frisbee54

Hi everyone I just wanted to share with you my recent buying experience of my 1996 TT in the hopes that it will help someone else not to make the same mistakes I did. As those of you who followed my search for a TT know I paid for PPI's on 2 cars in other states and that I passed on them because of issues found during the leakdown tests.
I found a car locally owned by Bill Bennett and the the car had been worked on extensivly by Viper Bob. He replaced the turbos and installed Bilstein HD shocks & ROW springs within a couple of hundred miles before I bought the car. My first call at the suggestion of the current owner was to call Viper Bob and ask him about the car as he knew it well which I did. I asked Viper Bob if he thought I needed to have him do a PPI on the car since he had just done all this work - turbos, suspension etc. He told me he didn"t feel it was necessary and that it was a great car.
I met the then current owner at Viper Bobs shop where he put it up on the lift to check the turbos as Bill said it smoked when he first stsrted it up, but Viper Bob said everything looked fine and the car had been sitting for awhile without being driven. So I paid for the car and drove it home.
Now we skip forward a couple of months and maybe 1500 miles and I took the car to Hollerans Performance for an oil change and dropped it off. John Holleran called me later in the day and told me he thought the car had problems, as when he went to start it he said it makes a wheezing sound while cranking over and it sounded like compression escaping past the valves and he asked me if I had noticed that. I told him yes it had done it from day one since I owned it and thought that was just how this car sounded while cranking over as I had never owned a modified TT like this one.
John did a leakdown on one bank and 2 cylinders were way down and he said the motor would need to come out. So to make this long story shorter all of the exhaust valves were bent. John after looking at the inside of the motor & also finding pieces of broken fan belt on top of the cylinders said he thought the motor had gotten hot.
So I decided to do a total rebuild top & bottom end to make sure it was done right. I think there may have been a misdiagnosis previously and the turbos were replaced when the main problem was the vaves.
I've bought many cars sight unseen and have had them inspected & shipped to me and have never had a problem so its rather ironic that the car I bought in my own area and I actually got to drive it home instead of having it shipped turns out needing $20k of repairs on it to make it right. Granted part of the $20k is new PSS9 suspension, clutch & lower end rebuild, but it was an expense I hadn't factored into the cost of the car when I bought it, as I relied on "expert" advice which seems to have been incorrect.
The goodnews is I plan on keeping this car and I'm setting it up just how I wanted it. I do like the car and it is a beautiful TT. The bad news is the car has been in the shop for 2 months and I'm spending that extra $20k. So when you buy one of these cars make sure the mechanic is top notch as these cars are very complicated and need a truely experienced mechanic to do alot of the major work properly.
So heres what John is doing to my car : crankshaft micro polished & balanced, rods machined to accept ARP rod bolts & balanced, pistons balanced and of course all new bearings, rings etc. Heads get all new intake & exhaust valves as well as improved guides and Johns special cylinder head sealing rings. I'm also installing new Euro RS camshfts as well as new clutch, pressure plate TO bearing etc. Also did short shift kit and new Bilstein PSS9 suspension and having it corner balanced & aligned.
I cant wait to get it back as it should be a nice running & fast TT and John warrenties his work for 1 year or 12500 miles so that will give you an idea of the confidence in the competence of the work he does. So if this helps someone else avoid my pitfalls than my writing this long story has been worth while. Doug

EddieC

Doug - That is one thing that would take some of the fun out of having a new TT. I am buying a TT now that the top end is being rebuilt. When I first inquired about the car through the local area Porsche dealership I was told by three different individuals (service manager, service writer, and Porsche mechanic) that the car I was buying did not need to have a PPI including the leak down and compression tests. So I said I would buy it without having the PPI done. Well, I had second thoughts (and credit for those second thoughts goes to this board...thanks to suspicious members one and all) and I had it taken to an independent shop to have a PPI done.(shop was recommended by the local Porsche club and members of this board) The owner of that shop told me that when he was out test driving the car that he thought I was "wasting my money" to have the tests done. He said later that he "really learned something about these cars" after he had done the tests and found out that about $10K-$12K worth of work was needed. Well, after the smoke cleared I talked to the current owner. A good shop is doing the fix and I'm going to take the car when all is completed. I guess my deal will work out better than yours did. I sorry for your predicament, but I was one snap judgement away from being in your shoes. I was lucky! I guess I'm telling this story to help emphasize what you have said. If you buy one of these cars, be sure to have a proper PPI done.

Best regards to all!

K24madness

Sorry to hear of your woes. I for one got lucky. I purchased a 96 with 16,500 miles with no PPI. Everything turned out real well!

viperbob

Let me add a few comments Doug. First, I did not discourage you from doing a PPI. Why would I discourage a PPI when we get paid for them? As I tell all folks, doing a PPI with a leakdown and compression test is like an insurance policy. I reminded you of this part of our conversation prior to buying Bill's car when you called me to ask if I wanted to "contribute" (your words) to getting your engine fixed at this other shop before you went on to take things public about how you needed to spend $20K to fix your motor. You never called before this with any issue. Never asked for a my opinion before you said you had decided to do rebuild the motor and add a lot of dicrecenary mods and a new suspension which has nothing to do with a rebuild, valves, or anything else. Second, I offered my shop to let you look at the car on a lift and it was closer for you to come and pick up the car as you had a bunch of folks coming over to your house that night for Dinner. Did I ask for any payment for anything for the shop time or my time? No This was a transaction between you and Bill and I was trying to be helpful to both of you. I told you that I had done the turbo work on the car (and your comment about a misdiagnosis is crazy. When a turbo is leaking oil through the seal into the intake pipe, guess what? It needs to be fixed. Is this the same shop telling you this that is telling you all of these other things are wrong with your car?) and added the suspension. That was one year ago that this work took place, and that was all I ever did on Bill's car. He used another shop in Campbell for everything else before and after as he had a long term relationship there. I even reminded you that I had no idea what all was done by the folks up in Vancouver to the engine. Third, how much time did I spend with you talking about the other cars you were looking to buy that needed major repairs around the country? Did I ever even talk about charging you for this time? No. I try to help folks on this forum.

So now you are spending a lot of money on modifications and are looking for someone to blame and help pay for it. I am really disappointed Doug.

Solitude

Full PPI=Cheap insurance. Do not let anyone talk you out of it. At the end ,it's your money.

Jean

Doug,

Sorry to hear about your problem, it really is a PITA to buy a car and have it in the workshop for all this time.

There are a few learnings from your experience.

I think you can only blame yourself for not having conducted a PPI. You knowingly bought a modified TURBO car without a PPI. Bob might have thought the car was in excellent condition, it does not change your responsibility to conduct due diligence.
You sometimes can buy a car from your best friend and it breaks down the next day.

Bob does not appear to have done "extensive" mods on the car, he just changed turbos and HD's !?

If Bob knew that it had valve problems or a leak , then he should have mentioned it, when he tested the car after installing the turbos, and with his experience in these cars, he would have known for sure. I assume this issue happened after he put the turbos in the car and he might not have known about the overheating issue. Check the records of the car, where was it repaired. If the owner tell you that he did not change the fan belt, then someone is lying. If he did change it, where was it changed?

What you really need to understand now, is whether the turbos are the root cause of these issues. Otherwise you might be facing the same problem all over again. If I were you I would put it on a dyno and have careful boost and AFR readings, as well as careful intake temp measurements.

Kevin himself recommends against these turbos with a stock engine setup.

strato58

Sorry to hear of your problems and hope it all works out well in the end...
I think its a good idea to purchase an extended warranty for the car or any used exotic type vehicle ....For about $2000 it will cover the car for 3, 4 or 5 years....
Good luck.

frisbee54

Hi Jean my point is that while the car may have needed new turbos, according to the reciepts and if you follow the time line on this, the valves were a pre-existing condition and you are right Viper Bob should have caught the problem as it was present when the turbos were done. I do only blame myself for not getting a leakdown/compression test done. And I don't know why turbos would be replaced on a motor that had other major problems and looking at the records & milage timeline a mistake was made and the valves didn't get picked up when the car had the turbos replaced. Doug

jw97C2S

To request that Viper Bob share in your expenses is insane. I am all for holding someone to their obligations but Viper Bob has no obligation to you.

By example, there is only one local tech I would trust with my 993 (Cliff at Boardwalk Porsche). Now if I was interested in buying a 993 that I knew Cliff personally serviced for its life, would I call still have a PPI? Of course since I want the 993 thoroughly examined at the time of purchase and also because it's placing Cliff in an awkward position since he's trying to save me a PPI and the seller the inconvenience of taking the car in for a PPI.

Jean

Doug, I sympathize with you and I think I understand exactly how you feel. I also think that you can only be disappointed at Bob if he knew about this condition and did not tell you, which I doubt.

If the timeline of the records show that the problem was there from before, I would check with the previous owner, although it seems like a known and liked person around here, but a broken belt and overheating do not go unnoticed..

You should just get over it and go enjoy your car

In either case, I really don't see why Bob should contribute to the expenses.

38D

How on earth would a mechanic know that the valves were bent by replacing leaky turbos? The two are not even remotely related. While I'm sorry for your unexpected bill, it's your own fault for not doing a PPI.

Rassel

No matter what, I can understand Dougs frustration. I wouldn't have been too happy either, and I can tell you I've been in some situations with cars where "furious" is best described my mood and anger.

Looking at it from the opposite side, you're getting a 993TT with very nice modifications and also knowing that all major issues is being solved. No matter what car you buy and what inspections have been done to it, if the engine is not taken apart you'll never know. So when all this is done and after the frustration has dropped a bit. You'll be driving around in a car that you can with confidence know is in a very good shape. This is a feeling that should never be underestimated! No more "Hmm, I wonder what da'h*ck that weird noise came from..."

Btw, according to your specs, you car makes me drool..

jrgordonsenior

Doug what does the previous owner have to say about all this?

hatchy

Doug, sorry you had the unexpected expenses, but like a few other people said, you now have a nice 993TT with some really nice mods. Now go out there and enjoy your ride!

CP

Hi Doug,

Sorry to hear about your issues. I've been there, done that. When I bought my RUF, I had RUF in Pheffenhausen do the PPI. The numbers came out good. Car arrived in December 2003, and Bob had to immediately replace my rusted suspension and brakes parts. It's raelly a safety issue. Now could I hold RUF responsible for not finding rusted under-carriage components?

At that time, Bob did not notice any oil-related issues. Fast forward to July 2004. I did a dyno and found air-fuel mixture problems. Bob looked at the car and saw oil issues at engine seal and turbo. Long story short, the car was at Devek between October 04 and January 05 getting these issues sorted out. New turbos and engine top-end rebuilt. My point is, these cars can develop probelms in a very short time span. I spent a ton of money fixing the rust and oil-leak issues. I was not happy about it, but in life, stuff happens. I'm only counting my blessing that I have a RUF. That's a joy that money may not even buy, sometimes.

While I'm typing this, my RUF is still at the body shop waiting for the paint to dry. Just can't wait to get it back.

I know of your car. It is a really top-notch car that few cars on the road can touch, including mine. As you say, while it's costing money, you will have a car that is totally sorted out at the end. Good luck with your car. Enjoy it thoroughly in good health.

CP