New tires and wide body wiggle
11-05-2003, 05:10 PM
#46
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Just to make a few points more clear:
1- Steve from SLO asked a valid question about his car becoming wiggly after installing a new set of rear tires. The most common reason for this is the tread depth differences between front and rear. I know it because I've been through this dozens of times since I drove my first 911 back in 1978. Of course, there are other reasons why a car would do that, but since it started happening right after tire changes, I am 99.9% certain it is the tires. More than half a dozen people, mostly Rennlist old timers and including Steve Weiner, have verified this. But, we still have people doubting it. So fine, whoever you are, believe what you want. Our experience means nothing if it cannot be read in a magazine or on some web site, I guess.
2- 993Widebody made a comment that he didn't have this problem with Pirelli PZero's. Fine, but he went on by adding a comment about how the PZero and the S-03PP were similar in performance. That is clearly inaccurate because several experienced drivers have attested to the fact that the differences between these two tires are quite big. Had he just made a comment about liking his S-03PP without comparing it with any other tire, I would have stayed out of this whole mess. The fact is that the S-03PP wasn't even designed with sports cars in mind. It was to replace the truly mediocre S-02PP which also was designed mostly for sport sedans. The fact that the rubber compound (UNIQ-T) was engineered to perform good in the wet as the tread wears must tell you that this tire is nothing more than a compromise performance tire. Heck, it doesn't even have enough of a contact patch. Just grooves everywhere. At any rate, I have extensive data on some testing I have made with tires and some other stuff. However, I neither have the time nor the inclination to post it. Once again, go read your magazine tests and the ridiculous Tire Rack tests and owners comments. Our experience doesn't really matter.
3- In a previous post above, I was told that I was condescending and I apologized for it and I apologize again.
4- From now on, I will make it a point to only post specifications, facts and statistics. No matter how inaccurate they are. I will let you be the judge as to their validity. There will be no information regarding personal experiences no matter how true or accurate.
1- Steve from SLO asked a valid question about his car becoming wiggly after installing a new set of rear tires. The most common reason for this is the tread depth differences between front and rear. I know it because I've been through this dozens of times since I drove my first 911 back in 1978. Of course, there are other reasons why a car would do that, but since it started happening right after tire changes, I am 99.9% certain it is the tires. More than half a dozen people, mostly Rennlist old timers and including Steve Weiner, have verified this. But, we still have people doubting it. So fine, whoever you are, believe what you want. Our experience means nothing if it cannot be read in a magazine or on some web site, I guess.
2- 993Widebody made a comment that he didn't have this problem with Pirelli PZero's. Fine, but he went on by adding a comment about how the PZero and the S-03PP were similar in performance. That is clearly inaccurate because several experienced drivers have attested to the fact that the differences between these two tires are quite big. Had he just made a comment about liking his S-03PP without comparing it with any other tire, I would have stayed out of this whole mess. The fact is that the S-03PP wasn't even designed with sports cars in mind. It was to replace the truly mediocre S-02PP which also was designed mostly for sport sedans. The fact that the rubber compound (UNIQ-T) was engineered to perform good in the wet as the tread wears must tell you that this tire is nothing more than a compromise performance tire. Heck, it doesn't even have enough of a contact patch. Just grooves everywhere. At any rate, I have extensive data on some testing I have made with tires and some other stuff. However, I neither have the time nor the inclination to post it. Once again, go read your magazine tests and the ridiculous Tire Rack tests and owners comments. Our experience doesn't really matter.
3- In a previous post above, I was told that I was condescending and I apologized for it and I apologize again.
4- From now on, I will make it a point to only post specifications, facts and statistics. No matter how inaccurate they are. I will let you be the judge as to their validity. There will be no information regarding personal experiences no matter how true or accurate.
11-05-2003, 05:24 PM
#48
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Originally posted by Viken
4- From now on, I will make it a point to only post specifications, facts and statistics. No matter how inaccurate they are. I will let you be the judge as to their validity. There will be no information regarding personal experiences no matter how true or accurate.
4- From now on, I will make it a point to only post specifications, facts and statistics. No matter how inaccurate they are. I will let you be the judge as to their validity. There will be no information regarding personal experiences no matter how true or accurate.
I for one appreciate it very much and I'm very thankfull when people like you, Greg, MD, DJ, Eric, Robert H, Robin, Hank,E.J, Dan, Mike and other veterans of this community that I forget open their mouth and offer advise because I KNOW it is 100% and very well thought out, not based on assumptions and speculation.
I would urge you to reconsider your decision for the benefit of this community.
Last edited by DJF1; 11-05-2003 at 07:08 PM.
11-06-2003, 01:00 AM
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This thread has come down to such a bunch of BS. Viken, granted, you have been of great help to hundreds of posters here, myself included. However, this thread shows your intolerance for anyone who disagrees with you. I have really become turned off to this board after years of participation and enjoyment.
Bottom line is you act like you know everything and everyone else either agrees with you, or they mustn't know anything. Anyway, too bad it has gotten so out of hand, but I guess egos get pretty big.
Bottom line is you act like you know everything and everyone else either agrees with you, or they mustn't know anything. Anyway, too bad it has gotten so out of hand, but I guess egos get pretty big.
11-06-2003, 02:11 AM
#52
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I have to apologize for my part in letting this discussion, that started so innocently, descend into something that is becoming uncomfortable. Where else but here could a discussion about tires raise such fervor in people, the kind usually reserved for religion and politics? Sometimes it is fun to fan the flames, but when it gets to the point where people's feelings get hurt it ain't worth it.
DTR,
Man, that was a nice post to me, thank you. There is a lot of truth in what you say. I do value the opinions of other's, but not just someone out of the blue. I listen to people who I know, and trust. Anyone else who presents to me an opinion as fact I take with a grain of salt.
I don't like seeing someone treated like an idiot for having an opinion that differs from someone elses when there is no clear evidence which opinion deserves more merit. It happens all to often here. Lacking overwhelming proof, opinions should be stated as such (in my opinion). Phrases like, "Almost everyone agrees", or ,"There is a strong consensus", are much more helpful than practically telling somone he is a douche bag because he likes a particular tire just as well as another.
I hope Viken doesn't stick to his pledge to never express an opinion again. I didn't mean to suggest that opinions have no value here, a well considered opinion from somebody who knows what he is talking about is indeed valuable, and shouldn't just be lumped in with speculation. I'm glad Viken backed up his comments in a later post with something more substantial than dogma.
I don't consider 'believing' in gravity as believing in Newton. Gravity is a quantifiable, reproducible phenomenon. It is well within the realm of science, there is no need for me to believe in it. If I cease to believe in gravity it would most likely continue to exist. Likewise, I don't have faith in any particular bridge, what I believe in is the decades of scientific research and testing that have led to the writing of codes and specifications by which such structures are built. And, bridges still do occasionally collapse.
I don't live my life purely by the numbers, but I have respect for science and logic. More respect than I have for blind faith.
Once again, my proposal for a tire test was meant to be humourous (although I could round up a couple of very good drivers if it came to that) trying to inject a little humor didn't really work for that situation.
My best wishes to all, what an engaging thread.
DTR,
Man, that was a nice post to me, thank you. There is a lot of truth in what you say. I do value the opinions of other's, but not just someone out of the blue. I listen to people who I know, and trust. Anyone else who presents to me an opinion as fact I take with a grain of salt.
I don't like seeing someone treated like an idiot for having an opinion that differs from someone elses when there is no clear evidence which opinion deserves more merit. It happens all to often here. Lacking overwhelming proof, opinions should be stated as such (in my opinion). Phrases like, "Almost everyone agrees", or ,"There is a strong consensus", are much more helpful than practically telling somone he is a douche bag because he likes a particular tire just as well as another.
I hope Viken doesn't stick to his pledge to never express an opinion again. I didn't mean to suggest that opinions have no value here, a well considered opinion from somebody who knows what he is talking about is indeed valuable, and shouldn't just be lumped in with speculation. I'm glad Viken backed up his comments in a later post with something more substantial than dogma.
I don't consider 'believing' in gravity as believing in Newton. Gravity is a quantifiable, reproducible phenomenon. It is well within the realm of science, there is no need for me to believe in it. If I cease to believe in gravity it would most likely continue to exist. Likewise, I don't have faith in any particular bridge, what I believe in is the decades of scientific research and testing that have led to the writing of codes and specifications by which such structures are built. And, bridges still do occasionally collapse.
I don't live my life purely by the numbers, but I have respect for science and logic. More respect than I have for blind faith.
Once again, my proposal for a tire test was meant to be humourous (although I could round up a couple of very good drivers if it came to that) trying to inject a little humor didn't really work for that situation.
Tires should be replaced no less than in pairs on one axle at a time. Only tires of the same tire make and type must be used. However, in case of tire damage such as cuts, punctures, cracks or sidewall bulges that cause a single tire to be replaced for safety reasons, the remaining matching tire on that axle must not exceed 30 percent wear. If the remaining tire has more than 30 percent wear from new, it should also be replaced. Handling inconsistencies may result if this is not done.
Initially, new tires do not offer their full traction. Drivers should therefore drive at moderate speeds during the first 60-100 miles (100-200 km). If new tires are installed on only one axle, a noticeable change in handling occurs due to the different tread depth of the other tires. This happens especially if only rear tires are replaced. However, this condition disappears as new tires are broken in. Drivers should adjust their driving style accordingly.
NOTE: The last two paragraphs are excerpts from recent Porsche vehicle owner’s manuals.
Initially, new tires do not offer their full traction. Drivers should therefore drive at moderate speeds during the first 60-100 miles (100-200 km). If new tires are installed on only one axle, a noticeable change in handling occurs due to the different tread depth of the other tires. This happens especially if only rear tires are replaced. However, this condition disappears as new tires are broken in. Drivers should adjust their driving style accordingly.
NOTE: The last two paragraphs are excerpts from recent Porsche vehicle owner’s manuals.
11-06-2003, 02:32 AM
#53
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Originally posted by 993Widebody
This thread has come down to such a bunch of BS. Viken, granted, you have been of great help to hundreds of posters here, myself included. However, this thread shows your intolerance for anyone who disagrees with you. I have really become turned off to this board after years of participation and enjoyment.
Bottom line is you act like you know everything and everyone else either agrees with you, or they mustn't know anything. Anyway, too bad it has gotten so out of hand, but I guess egos get pretty big.
This thread has come down to such a bunch of BS. Viken, granted, you have been of great help to hundreds of posters here, myself included. However, this thread shows your intolerance for anyone who disagrees with you. I have really become turned off to this board after years of participation and enjoyment.
Bottom line is you act like you know everything and everyone else either agrees with you, or they mustn't know anything. Anyway, too bad it has gotten so out of hand, but I guess egos get pretty big.
That's just plain asinine.
The problem is not Viken's "intolerance for anyone who disagrees with [him]", the problem is you assigning equanimity to all opinions, when only one can be correct. That type of irrational thinking is akin to allowing everyone to have an "opinion" on the subject of "what is two plus two?". There is only one correct answer, and the man with the correct answer is right to be intolerant of every other answer besides "four".
Also, Viken does not "act like he knows everything", but he does know everything about which he speaks. If he doesn't know, then he doesn't say. The problem here is that most everyone feels compelled to take wild-assed guesses about things they don't know about, or to parrot information that they've "heard", and then fight vociferously with those who really do know.
And, if anyone here has got an ego problem, it's you, for thinking that your knowledge about these subjects could ever do more than scratch the surface of what someone like Viken knows. I know, because I know Viken, and he is a veritable walking encylopedia of knowledge when it comes to Porsches (and several other subjects as well).
All is not equal
Not all opinions matter
Truth is what matters
11-06-2003, 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by DJ
That's just plain asinine.
The problem is not Viken's "intolerance for anyone who disagrees with [him]", the problem is you assigning equanimity to all opinions, when only one can be correct. That type of irrational thinking is akin to allowing everyone to have an "opinion" on the subject of "what is two plus two?". There is only one correct answer, and the man with the correct answer is right to be intolerant of every other answer besides "four".
Also, Viken does not "act like he knows everything", but he does know everything about which he speaks. If he doesn't know, then he doesn't say. The problem here is that most everyone feels compelled to take wild-assed guesses about things they don't know about, or to parrot information that they've "heard", and then fight vociferously with those who really do know.
And, if anyone here has got an ego problem, it's you, for thinking that your knowledge about these subjects could ever do more than scratch the surface of what someone like Viken knows. I know, because I know Viken, and he is a veritable walking encylopedia of knowledge when it comes to Porsches (and several other subjects as well).
All is not equal
Not all opinions matter
Truth is what matters
That's just plain asinine.
The problem is not Viken's "intolerance for anyone who disagrees with [him]", the problem is you assigning equanimity to all opinions, when only one can be correct. That type of irrational thinking is akin to allowing everyone to have an "opinion" on the subject of "what is two plus two?". There is only one correct answer, and the man with the correct answer is right to be intolerant of every other answer besides "four".
Also, Viken does not "act like he knows everything", but he does know everything about which he speaks. If he doesn't know, then he doesn't say. The problem here is that most everyone feels compelled to take wild-assed guesses about things they don't know about, or to parrot information that they've "heard", and then fight vociferously with those who really do know.
And, if anyone here has got an ego problem, it's you, for thinking that your knowledge about these subjects could ever do more than scratch the surface of what someone like Viken knows. I know, because I know Viken, and he is a veritable walking encylopedia of knowledge when it comes to Porsches (and several other subjects as well).
All is not equal
Not all opinions matter
Truth is what matters
Lastly, I stated an opionon based on my EXPERIENCE - NOT SPECULATION- and basically I am told I don't know what the hell I am talking about. The ego comes into play when a few people simply question why such a bold statement is true, and all of a sudden, all hell breaks loose.
Anyway, I am DONE DONE DONE with this thread, I think sometimes people can be mis-construed quite easily when coversing electronically, and that is probably what happened here. Sorry it got so out of hand, let's try and put it behind us.
Last edited by 993Widebody; 11-06-2003 at 02:35 PM.
11-16-2003, 10:07 PM
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With the exception that the thread took a wrong turn into a dark alley (one of the reasons I let my membership lapse), there was much good information here.
Thanks to all.
My original question was answered by Viken (surprise!) I had 2 new front S-03s installed, drove for about 3 miles and called my mechanic to cancel the 4 wheel alignment. The rear end wander was gone!
I never would have believed that new/old rubber/tread difference would have done that to the handling, but I once again have been shown how little I know.
Again, Thanks to all and have a good coming week.
Steve
Thanks to all.
My original question was answered by Viken (surprise!) I had 2 new front S-03s installed, drove for about 3 miles and called my mechanic to cancel the 4 wheel alignment. The rear end wander was gone!
I never would have believed that new/old rubber/tread difference would have done that to the handling, but I once again have been shown how little I know.
Again, Thanks to all and have a good coming week.
Steve
11-17-2003, 02:26 AM
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So, slightly different question here......
Has anyone done the change from SO2 to SO2A and can report on the relative change? I'm on SO2s now and when the time comes I would like to possibly consider the S02As.
Since I live in CA, wet weather is not really an issue however, I plan on driving the car year round so when it does rain, I certainly would hate for the car to have no rain performance
Has anyone done the change from SO2 to SO2A and can report on the relative change? I'm on SO2s now and when the time comes I would like to possibly consider the S02As.
Since I live in CA, wet weather is not really an issue however, I plan on driving the car year round so when it does rain, I certainly would hate for the car to have no rain performance
