ApexL8

Steve in SLO,
It sure sounds like your car is misbehaving. I don't like the sound of your description of having to wait for the rear end to settle in. With PSS-9s, RS sway bars, and monoballs that thing should set into a corner very quickly, especially since we a talking street speeds here and not the kinds of transition forces you would see at the track.

That waiting for the rear to set sounds more like a description of the Monroes or Boges, not the PSS-9.

I gotta go back to ca993twin's suggestion of borrowing another set of wheels/tires and see if that feels better.

If you decide to buy new fronts let us know how it turns out.

Cheers,

Chris C.

Viken:

Perhaps if you share your extensive, presumably empirical experience and testing data from the different tires you've had on your rear engined cars we can better distinguish your facts from others' more subjective experience (or even "misinformation").

It seems to me that short of some serious measuring equipment and testing different tires on the same car, the same surface, and the same day and conditions (as the large magazines occasionally do), tire performance reviews are inherently subjective...and a free exchange of opinions beneficial.

If you don't publish the data supporting your views of P-zero or SO2a superiority (and SO3PP inferiority), how would any of us know your opinions were not to be weighted just like everyone else's?

(To be clear, no disrespect intended. I too was surprised by the attitude conveyed in the posts above)

Greg Fishman

Chris,
Do you have to be an "expert" to be able to tell the difference between a good product and a mediocore one? I haven't run the S-03's, but Viken's response is almost exactly what I have heard others say.


Do you need "serious measuring equipment" and the exact same testing procedures to know that a 911 is a better car than a Chevrolet Monte Carlo, or a Toyota Camry? Do you look at anything beyond the "numbers" when buying a car or tires?


Steve in SLO's issue with his car is due to the tread depth difference, front to back, I have experienced this but with some Pirelli tires. Viken said it, Steve W. said it also. How many more need to say it?

J.PELLEGRINO

Steve,i have seen this before,and it was generally not a tire issue.If one or more of the tires were worn to the point of exposing cord or steel belts,that might give you those sysmptoms.In my experience,you have either a worn rear to link,or something has loosened back there,allowing for toe change in the rear of the car.Both of these are fairly easy to isolate and repair,just be sure and reset the aligment when you are done.
PS,the factory uses locking nuts,designed not to loosen,if they are in fact worn,they should be replaced,its cheap insurance against future problems.
Good luck.Jerry

DJF1

S03's are great when driving in the rain and at moderately fast speeds according to my taste. When I changed into them I got a nice 'comfort' feeling but this reduced the feedback I got from the tires. I really like them in the rain though... Having said that I really liked the P-Zero's assimetricos on the track compared to the S03's and even the normal S0'2s the difference is night and day. In the dry the assimetricos are unbeatable for a street tire. The only problem I got with my last set before switching to the sport cups was that I literally destroyed the tires on the track in 1 and half DE weekends! The rears were chunking so bad that I was loosing tread faster than I could say "Pirelli".
A good comprimise has been found with the Pilot Sport Rib tire which is now mounted as my streets and although I do not run them hard on the street, the indications I got is that they are similar in feel to the P-Zero only much better in the rain.
Just my 02 cents.

Matt Vaughan

I had the S-03's on for several track events, and felt they were also inferior to the S-02 in terms of dry performance. And since the S-03 is considered to be a more "comfortable" tire, I could tell there was a loss in feedback from them -- a muted feel to them. The S-03 is a good all-around tire, especially in the wet, as Danny mentioned. For street tire usage on the track, I prefer the following, in order:

1. BFG GForce KD
2. Pirelli PZero System Assimetrico
3. Bridgestone S-02

993Widebody

I will agree with the above comment, that there wasn't as much feedback, so you didn't know quite where the tires were in terms of breaking loose.

So I am in the minority here that the SO3s dry performance are comparable to the P-Zeros. The great news for me is that I must be a heck of a driver passing people with track tires and setup for the track, with my crappy SO3s. WOW, makes me feel that I may be good enough to run with the fast HWFM racing team.

One last question, is there a difference between SO3s and SO3 PPs? I am not sure if there are indeed two different tires, and we are comparing apples to apples.

Dirt Track Racer

I am pretty sure that a DE is not the best place to compare cars, tires, times or drivers. Big whup you pass some cars with track suspensions and tires.

But then again, what the hell do I know? I like to race in the mud.

DTR

Robert Henriksen

Yeah, we've got some drivers that slow down here in Texas, too.

ApexL8

The perfect solution has come to me...every 993 owner on Rennlist can send me money, so that I have enough to buy a set of every "Max" performance tire brand we are interested in testing.

I promise to find a real driver to test them, not a slow poke like me, we can back to back compare the tires on skidpad, slalom, and a road course. A G Tech Pro, and a decent stopwatch should do the trick for some empirical evidence. Then we can get some of that subjective data by driving them around on the public roads; comfort, stability.

After testing there should be a fair amount of tread left on the tires, we can sell them on Rennlist Classifieds to recoup some of the losses. Split the money up between everyone who contributed and apply it as a credit towards their next year's membership fees.

If I weren't too lazy to mount and un-mount all those tires something like this could actually work.

993Widebody

I agree, big whup. The name of the game is to have fun out there. Obviously I was trying to shed some fun on this thread that has gotten a bit too tense. Too bad you can't see that.

Dirt Track Racer

Or we could just trust the experts here on the 993 board who have already done that with their own cars and who dispense with their knowledge freely on a daily basis.

DTR.

ApexL8

DTR,
Are you saying that the powers that be at Rennlist have actually published empirical data about these tires? I mean data, numbers, not seat of the pants anecdotal hearsay. Back to back testing under controlled circumstances?

If so I stand corrected, point me to it, I love a good read.

I, too, was just trying to add a little humor into the situation.

I don't underestimate the power of Rennlist, there is all kinds of good information floating around here, but it still needs to be sorted into piles, some is fact, some is opinion, and most of the time the opinions are clearly stated as being purely those. I don't take anyone's opinion at face value, ever.

Where's the beef? Show me numbers.

Dirt Track Racer

The beef is at Wendy's and the numbers are floating around in your head.

Here in lies the rub. Lots of people read the magazines and the tire rack reviews for the numbers. These people think that cars, expecially sports cars, should be chosen based on the digital bits of information that make up the numbers in these reviews. These are the same people who don't care if a car has a soul or character. They just want to tell their beer drinking buddies that there car one tenth of a second faster to 60 or stops 8 inches shorter from 80 mph - "must be those fancy Bembro brakes."

Personally, I live my life in the real world. I want a car that feels good to strap on. That has a soul and a character. Not one that might have won the 'Road and Track sportscar shootout of the month" or that might have a bold listing in the performance numbers of the Road and Track car listing at the back of each months magazine.

If you need to strap ten thousand dollars worth of testing equipment to your 993 and buy 6 thousand dollars worth of tires and then spend $10k at Barber for a two day test to figure out which max performance tire might be best, then good for you. I will read your results with the same eye for detail that i read every car or car part review.

Or you could choose option B which is to trust the beliefs of other, more knowledgable and experienced people, that have done the tests already. Sure, they didn't have the testing equipment or the same atmospheric conditions each time, but they sure know how to drive the wheels of a car at the track under all conditions.

You say that you don't take anyone's opinion at face value. It must be a pretty lonely existence to have to prove everything as you move through your day. I mean, have you read Newton's laws on gravity? Or do you trust his opinoin that you are not going to float off into space as you walk down the street? Do you stop and call each civil engineer from your cellphone before you drive over a bridge to get his non published engineering plans to make sure the bridge will not collapse when you drive over it? Or do you trust his design and findings and drive over anyway?

My point is simple. If you want to live in the numbers, thats fine. But certain people here and other places deserve to have their beliefs and findings (not opinions) taken at better than face value. If you disagree, thats your perogative. But as I said above, I would hate to have to prove out every facet of my life.

DTR

DJF1

Relax guys...we don't need to hire a pro or anything...So what if the s03's or the Pirellis or the kumhos turn the fastest time! Big deal and most likely it will be only tenths difference in a single lap time. I think we are dancing around the point here. I think that a good tire for a good driver is the confidence level that it inspires to explore its limits. In other words if you read what is everyone is saying here we agree to disagree.
The facts are that the S03 is a great tire only non confidence inspiring and depending on your skill and your cockiness you might actually be faster with it. The point is for the majority of drivers what will it take to get there?
Remember back in the days that you were starting out DE's and you had an instructor next to you prompting you to take the turn a bit faster and you thought he is nuts!? At that time you genuinly believed that this was it, you cannot go faster. It took you probably a couple of laps to follow the prompt brake 5 feet later and take the turn a bit faster. After it was done you immediately established another comfort level. At this point probably you started to feel the difference between driving 7/10's to 7 and half which is a big thing.
Its the same with the tires. A tire like the assymetrico with its wonderfull feedback will take you to 7 or 8 tenths much faster if not straight away than the S03. Some people may never reach this level of confidence with the S03 and therefore will be slower having the correct impression that the tire is worse than the other.
Is there any point of searching the absolute limit on a street tire? I think not. Is there any point of searching for the best tire that inspires more confidence? Absoltely.