Buying a car unseen
10-16-2002, 10:28 PM
#1
Track Day
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Buying a car unseen
Hey guys and gals.
I hope I'm not asking one of those annoying FAQ type questions, but here goes.
I'm shopping for a 993TT, and have found a couple of cars that look reasonable. There's apparently almost identical Midnight Blue/Grey cars on the opposite coasts, and a couple of Arena Red/Grey scattered here an there that I'm considering/choosing between (oh decisions... decisions).
Does anyone maintain a horror-story site about "dealers to stay away from"? Would it be inappropriate to post something like: Hey has anyone in Santa Barbara had any experience (good or bad) with ....
Of course, being from Texas, I'm disinclined to trust anyone from New York or California
so, this whole shopping via JPG photos has got me a little stressed. Anyone care to offer advice? My instinct is to negotiate price, arrange for PPI, buy plane ticket, view car and then ship it home.
Anybody ever arrange for a fellow Rennlister who was local go check out a car before they bought/shipped it cross country? (anybody live in New Rochelle :-))
Finally, a couple of the dealers I've spoken with have confessed about panels being painted on the cars. "The door apparently has been painted probably to remove dings", or "the rear quarter was painted to repair a minor parking-lot mishap". How many of you would walk away from any car that has had any paint? What sort of corroboration would you look for to confirm that the repair was strictly cosmetic (no frame work, etc.)
Thanks
Craig
I hope I'm not asking one of those annoying FAQ type questions, but here goes.
I'm shopping for a 993TT, and have found a couple of cars that look reasonable. There's apparently almost identical Midnight Blue/Grey cars on the opposite coasts, and a couple of Arena Red/Grey scattered here an there that I'm considering/choosing between (oh decisions... decisions).
Does anyone maintain a horror-story site about "dealers to stay away from"? Would it be inappropriate to post something like: Hey has anyone in Santa Barbara had any experience (good or bad) with ....
Of course, being from Texas, I'm disinclined to trust anyone from New York or California
so, this whole shopping via JPG photos has got me a little stressed. Anyone care to offer advice? My instinct is to negotiate price, arrange for PPI, buy plane ticket, view car and then ship it home. Anybody ever arrange for a fellow Rennlister who was local go check out a car before they bought/shipped it cross country? (anybody live in New Rochelle :-))
Finally, a couple of the dealers I've spoken with have confessed about panels being painted on the cars. "The door apparently has been painted probably to remove dings", or "the rear quarter was painted to repair a minor parking-lot mishap". How many of you would walk away from any car that has had any paint? What sort of corroboration would you look for to confirm that the repair was strictly cosmetic (no frame work, etc.)
Thanks
Craig
10-16-2002, 11:25 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
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Craig:
In order:
Stay away from California Cars.
I am sure Rennlisters will volunteer to look at cars if you ask (as you just did). I will, for one. I have been looking for a TT and frequent virtually all dealers and private sellers looking for the right one. I would be more than happy to look at one for you and kick the tires. You can e-mail me privately. My address in on my profile.
There are so many TT's around that you can turn away from re-painted ones.
Good luck.
In order:
Stay away from California Cars.
I am sure Rennlisters will volunteer to look at cars if you ask (as you just did). I will, for one. I have been looking for a TT and frequent virtually all dealers and private sellers looking for the right one. I would be more than happy to look at one for you and kick the tires. You can e-mail me privately. My address in on my profile.
There are so many TT's around that you can turn away from re-painted ones.
Good luck.
10-16-2002, 11:38 PM
#3
Drifting
Hey Craig,
Hopefully my experience with a sight unseen purchase might help you.
I bought my 993 from a dealer in Greensboro N. Carolina, I lived in Miami.
I was extremely worried about purchasing a car this way and I would tell you if you have the time, jump on a plane and go look at the car. After all, you are spending around 80-100K for a car.
Having said that, my sight unseen purchase went better than I ever could have expected. I am sure you can find a rennlister who will look at the car for you also. If there is one in Los Angeles, let me know and I'll eye the car and take it for a drive. Be for warned though, I'm no mechanic or anything, I can just give you an overall impression based on looks and feel.
Those of us from NY and California have been warned to stay away from the Texas dealerships. I was told that many of the cars have flood damage, hidden repairs, etc. That being said, you could get lucky or screwed by any dealer regardless of location.
Get a PPI on the car, that's a must. If you can send it to two people, even better. One to look at the mechanics, and send it to a body shop to inspect for damage.
I wouldn't be to worried about a car that has some paint. My car has never been in any major accidents but I have repainted certain areas for various reasons. For example, the whole front up to the trunk lid on my car was repainted when I converted my turn signals to the euro look and added the brake ducts. There are also some areas of my car that have some scratches. Other cars might have been in a minor contact accident. It's my opinion, no big deal. Especially if your looking for a car your going to be bringing to the track or autoX.
If your looking for a garage queen, disregard my remarks.
My car also had some milage on it. Fine with me. I researched the car and found out the previous owner was meticulous about taking care of, had complete records, etc. I'd rather have a car that's been driven and well maintained than a car that has carbon build up etc,
Even if it was driven hard, that doesn't mean it was beaten.
Since your buying a turbo, find out if the chip was modded. Also, since your buying from a dealer, get it certified. (I'm assuming the dealers are authorized Pcar.)
The certification will give you a one year warranty and it only costs the dealership $600.
Offer to pay for it yourself.
If they don't certify it, then I would worry about the car. To pass certification the car has to have a certain amount of brakes, rotors, parts need to be checked, it goes through a list of things.
If the car has been in a major accident it can't be certified.
Good luck
Seth
Hopefully my experience with a sight unseen purchase might help you.
I bought my 993 from a dealer in Greensboro N. Carolina, I lived in Miami.
I was extremely worried about purchasing a car this way and I would tell you if you have the time, jump on a plane and go look at the car. After all, you are spending around 80-100K for a car.
Having said that, my sight unseen purchase went better than I ever could have expected. I am sure you can find a rennlister who will look at the car for you also. If there is one in Los Angeles, let me know and I'll eye the car and take it for a drive. Be for warned though, I'm no mechanic or anything, I can just give you an overall impression based on looks and feel.
Those of us from NY and California have been warned to stay away from the Texas dealerships. I was told that many of the cars have flood damage, hidden repairs, etc. That being said, you could get lucky or screwed by any dealer regardless of location.
Get a PPI on the car, that's a must. If you can send it to two people, even better. One to look at the mechanics, and send it to a body shop to inspect for damage.
I wouldn't be to worried about a car that has some paint. My car has never been in any major accidents but I have repainted certain areas for various reasons. For example, the whole front up to the trunk lid on my car was repainted when I converted my turn signals to the euro look and added the brake ducts. There are also some areas of my car that have some scratches. Other cars might have been in a minor contact accident. It's my opinion, no big deal. Especially if your looking for a car your going to be bringing to the track or autoX.
If your looking for a garage queen, disregard my remarks.
My car also had some milage on it. Fine with me. I researched the car and found out the previous owner was meticulous about taking care of, had complete records, etc. I'd rather have a car that's been driven and well maintained than a car that has carbon build up etc,
Even if it was driven hard, that doesn't mean it was beaten.
Since your buying a turbo, find out if the chip was modded. Also, since your buying from a dealer, get it certified. (I'm assuming the dealers are authorized Pcar.)
The certification will give you a one year warranty and it only costs the dealership $600.
Offer to pay for it yourself.
If they don't certify it, then I would worry about the car. To pass certification the car has to have a certain amount of brakes, rotors, parts need to be checked, it goes through a list of things.
If the car has been in a major accident it can't be certified.
Good luck
Seth
10-16-2002, 11:42 PM
#5
Racer
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If you are in the market for a TT, please do yourself a favor and call Cutter Motors in Santa Barbara. Last time I checked, they had a '97 Blk/Blk TT with 8000 miles on it, and they were asking in the $70s. I know nothiing about the car, but it seems like it's worth a phone call.
Happy hunting!
Happy hunting!
10-16-2002, 11:43 PM
#6
Drifting
Mark,
What's wrong with California dealers?
Oh yeah, one more thing.....
I made a stipulation with the dealership that I purchased from. If when the car arrived it was less than I had expected, I had 48hrs to flip the car back to them. But in that case, I had to pay for shipping both ways. I made this deal with the dealership as a sign of good faith. They promised a car but gave me a way out. The way out might have cost me a couple grand in shipping but the dealer knew I wasn't sending it back anyway.
What's wrong with California dealers?
Oh yeah, one more thing.....
I made a stipulation with the dealership that I purchased from. If when the car arrived it was less than I had expected, I had 48hrs to flip the car back to them. But in that case, I had to pay for shipping both ways. I made this deal with the dealership as a sign of good faith. They promised a car but gave me a way out. The way out might have cost me a couple grand in shipping but the dealer knew I wasn't sending it back anyway.
10-16-2002, 11:55 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
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Craig
Damn we are living in a country where you can't trust anybody you can't put your hands on?...In 30 years of corporate banking, I have seen more money lost in Texas than any state in the union...close behind were New York and Florida....Ca. was in the top ten....
I have purchased five or six Porsches or more sight unseen over the years....one was a 930 Turbo in London....Honestly only two or three were used....the following are some rules of thumb that I follow:
-One owner cars with documented service history whether it is direct from the owner or a authorized Porsche dealer
-Porsches that are still under factory warranty or that qualify for the used certification warranty through a Porsche dealer ( on one car I had the owner warrant the car through the sort out period and then supplied a third party warranty on the drive train....I was still out of pocket a fair amount )
-Only original examples, i.e. no paint or body work
-Focus on mechanics more than cosmetics, i.e. the "five foot sniff"test
-Porsches that have been driven 3,000 to 5,000 miles per year
-NO AUCTION OR LEASE CARS FROM TEXAS!
More seriously, you need to decide early on whether you buying on price or are you trying to acquire a genuine example....It is nice to buy in your own backyard, if possible
Good luck
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Damn we are living in a country where you can't trust anybody you can't put your hands on?...In 30 years of corporate banking, I have seen more money lost in Texas than any state in the union...close behind were New York and Florida....Ca. was in the top ten....
I have purchased five or six Porsches or more sight unseen over the years....one was a 930 Turbo in London....Honestly only two or three were used....the following are some rules of thumb that I follow:
-One owner cars with documented service history whether it is direct from the owner or a authorized Porsche dealer
-Porsches that are still under factory warranty or that qualify for the used certification warranty through a Porsche dealer ( on one car I had the owner warrant the car through the sort out period and then supplied a third party warranty on the drive train....I was still out of pocket a fair amount )
-Only original examples, i.e. no paint or body work
-Focus on mechanics more than cosmetics, i.e. the "five foot sniff"test
-Porsches that have been driven 3,000 to 5,000 miles per year
-NO AUCTION OR LEASE CARS FROM TEXAS!
More seriously, you need to decide early on whether you buying on price or are you trying to acquire a genuine example....It is nice to buy in your own backyard, if possible
Good luck
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Trending Topics
10-17-2002, 12:14 AM
#8
I know of several instances whereby cars were purchased sight unseen and the cars worked out. In one case, the seller was extremely honest and courteous in his description of the car. The car was a gem. It got a PPI when it arrived. Only items missing from a complete service 500 miles earlier were CV boots and leaking shocks. In the other case, the car was purchased wholesale and there was not much opportunity to inspect it. That owner has put some money into the car, but nothing that would detract from the current value.
The issue of body work and paint is going to be one of personal preference. Yes, of course, a painted door or panel means little to the performance of your car. But if the damage is the only reference to a much larger problem with suspension or frame damage, the problem is much larger. Damage will always detract from the wholesale price. I would not purchase a car without inspection if it had previous paint work.
Personally, I believe having accurate documentation is just as important as a PPI. That being said, information on the maintenance will give you a wealth of information about the sophistication and reliablity of maintenance the vehicle had. Repairs are repairs. They will happen to almost any car. Yes, certain key items, like tranmissions or engine rebuilds should raise one's eyebrows. Minor items just happen. Many buyers can "afford" to buy the car, but can not keep it up and put little into recorded maintenance. Avoid this type of car as maintenance will eventually catch up with you.
It is alot of trouble to purchase a car out of town and transport it. You also have the option of having a trusted friend or colleague inspect the car for you. This person would not be a mechanic, but someone who might know the car and be able to carefully evaluate it. Personally, the purchaser might need a month or two to get used to the car and become familiar with all the bugs. There is no substitute for being there yourself. Good luck.
The issue of body work and paint is going to be one of personal preference. Yes, of course, a painted door or panel means little to the performance of your car. But if the damage is the only reference to a much larger problem with suspension or frame damage, the problem is much larger. Damage will always detract from the wholesale price. I would not purchase a car without inspection if it had previous paint work.
Personally, I believe having accurate documentation is just as important as a PPI. That being said, information on the maintenance will give you a wealth of information about the sophistication and reliablity of maintenance the vehicle had. Repairs are repairs. They will happen to almost any car. Yes, certain key items, like tranmissions or engine rebuilds should raise one's eyebrows. Minor items just happen. Many buyers can "afford" to buy the car, but can not keep it up and put little into recorded maintenance. Avoid this type of car as maintenance will eventually catch up with you.
It is alot of trouble to purchase a car out of town and transport it. You also have the option of having a trusted friend or colleague inspect the car for you. This person would not be a mechanic, but someone who might know the car and be able to carefully evaluate it. Personally, the purchaser might need a month or two to get used to the car and become familiar with all the bugs. There is no substitute for being there yourself. Good luck.
10-17-2002, 12:45 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
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[quote]Originally posted by Phil McGrath:
<strong>Stay away from California Cars
as in califcars.com</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks Phil.
Yes, I meant the dealer called, "California Cars"
<a href="http://www.californiacars.com" target="_blank">http://www.californiacars.com</a>
Sorry for the confusion.
<strong>Stay away from California Cars
as in califcars.com</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks Phil.
Yes, I meant the dealer called, "California Cars"
<a href="http://www.californiacars.com" target="_blank">http://www.californiacars.com</a>
Sorry for the confusion.
10-17-2002, 01:56 AM
#11
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I bought mine via .jpg - worked out fine. Only thing I would add is that I flew out to see the car and drove it home. My only regret is that the drive wasn't longer - ala Supertramp "...take the long way home...". Don't ship it, drive it!
10-17-2002, 02:02 AM
#12
what is it with Texas?!? I thought I saw from one of the many posts on the subject that Texas was fairly lenient on having salvage titles reissued as normal ones?
Does this sound familiar <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Does this sound familiar <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
10-17-2002, 12:06 PM
#13
Track Day
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Thanks for the insight and tips guys.
Just kidding about the NY and CA comments, of course. I lived for years in the 'burbs of NYC, my wife is from Queens, I went to school upstate... and I have nothing against CA.
I'd read some other negative comments about the California Cars dealership, they have a really bad wrap around/among the Rennlist community. At this point, I wouldn't consider buying a car from them. Anyone ever been to a dealership in Santa Barbara called Montecito Motors?
I have received on private email with some rather negative comments about Par Cars in New Rochelle. Anyone care to defend them?
Thanks!
Craig
Just kidding about the NY and CA comments, of course. I lived for years in the 'burbs of NYC, my wife is from Queens, I went to school upstate... and I have nothing against CA.
I'd read some other negative comments about the California Cars dealership, they have a really bad wrap around/among the Rennlist community. At this point, I wouldn't consider buying a car from them. Anyone ever been to a dealership in Santa Barbara called Montecito Motors?
I have received on private email with some rather negative comments about Par Cars in New Rochelle. Anyone care to defend them?
Thanks!
Craig
10-17-2002, 01:40 PM
#15
4th Gear
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Say yearn2race,
My experience is with a BMW, not a Porsche, but maybe it could help. Be very careful when a salesman says "minor dents or door dings repaired." I bought (for a week) a 99 M3 that supposedly had "a couple door dings" repaired on one side. I got excited and bought it in the evening when I could not see well enough. The next day in the sunlight, I saw the wavy finish indicative of Bondo running down the entire side of the car. After further investigation (the salesman would not give me the phone number of the previous owners supposedly for their privacy--what a crock) I managed to squeeze out the information that the wife had crunched the whole side of the car against the garage. When I complained to the salesman that he had misrepresented the car and I no longer wanted it, he tried to force me into accepting it by saying I already owned the car, paperwork was done, and it was too late to change. After some haggling and legal stuff, I invoked the Deceptive Trade Practices Act and made a lower offer on the car giving the dealership the option of accepting my lower offer or refunding my original purchase money. They took the latter and I bought a better '98 a few days later.
I have had good luck with judging used cars but I am a mechanical engineer. I think you can get a feel for the condition of the car by driving it vigorously for a half hour or so. I'd definitely drive the car before making a final decision in addition to the PPI others have recommended. But back to the test drive, trust your intuition about the feel. A seriously wrecked or otherwise damaged car will usually not "feel" quite right. After warming up, wind up the motor full throttle to near the redline at least once to test for engine problems. This should expose any serious mechanical defects or issues with fuel delivery/ignition. An problem engine might sputter, hesitate, or make an unusual noise under full load. The chassis is mainly a matter of driving over some moderate bumps and listening/feeling for rattles or clunks. Brake moderately hard from 70-80 MPH on flat pavement to look for vibration (possible play in suspension bushings or ball joints), pedal oscillation (indication of warped rotors), or directional pull (not bad: uneven tire inflation; bad: stuck caliper). Also examine tires for uneven wear patterns indicative of anything from bad alignment to suspension play (including worn shocks) to frame damage.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head but good luck. Trust your own mechanical judgement in addition to that of some experts and you won't go wrong. The more time you have with the car the better. If the car has a problem it will likely show up within a few hours/days of operation.
My experience is with a BMW, not a Porsche, but maybe it could help. Be very careful when a salesman says "minor dents or door dings repaired." I bought (for a week) a 99 M3 that supposedly had "a couple door dings" repaired on one side. I got excited and bought it in the evening when I could not see well enough. The next day in the sunlight, I saw the wavy finish indicative of Bondo running down the entire side of the car. After further investigation (the salesman would not give me the phone number of the previous owners supposedly for their privacy--what a crock) I managed to squeeze out the information that the wife had crunched the whole side of the car against the garage. When I complained to the salesman that he had misrepresented the car and I no longer wanted it, he tried to force me into accepting it by saying I already owned the car, paperwork was done, and it was too late to change. After some haggling and legal stuff, I invoked the Deceptive Trade Practices Act and made a lower offer on the car giving the dealership the option of accepting my lower offer or refunding my original purchase money. They took the latter and I bought a better '98 a few days later.
I have had good luck with judging used cars but I am a mechanical engineer. I think you can get a feel for the condition of the car by driving it vigorously for a half hour or so. I'd definitely drive the car before making a final decision in addition to the PPI others have recommended. But back to the test drive, trust your intuition about the feel. A seriously wrecked or otherwise damaged car will usually not "feel" quite right. After warming up, wind up the motor full throttle to near the redline at least once to test for engine problems. This should expose any serious mechanical defects or issues with fuel delivery/ignition. An problem engine might sputter, hesitate, or make an unusual noise under full load. The chassis is mainly a matter of driving over some moderate bumps and listening/feeling for rattles or clunks. Brake moderately hard from 70-80 MPH on flat pavement to look for vibration (possible play in suspension bushings or ball joints), pedal oscillation (indication of warped rotors), or directional pull (not bad: uneven tire inflation; bad: stuck caliper). Also examine tires for uneven wear patterns indicative of anything from bad alignment to suspension play (including worn shocks) to frame damage.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head but good luck. Trust your own mechanical judgement in addition to that of some experts and you won't go wrong. The more time you have with the car the better. If the car has a problem it will likely show up within a few hours/days of operation.