Rear toe arm R&R questions.
09-23-2003, 05:38 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robin:
Do you have a contact for Autometric or a re-seller for their tool?
I have been trying to get a hold the kine-toe tool for several months, but have not been able to get contact for Autometric.
I have been borrowing one from a local, "friendly" shop, but that is wearing a little thin. Beer has worn thin and "rent" has come up... If I had it, I could do the whole "sha-bang" when ever I pleased.
If need be, please PM me the info.
TIA
Do you have a contact for Autometric or a re-seller for their tool?
I have been trying to get a hold the kine-toe tool for several months, but have not been able to get contact for Autometric.
I have been borrowing one from a local, "friendly" shop, but that is wearing a little thin. Beer has worn thin and "rent" has come up... If I had it, I could do the whole "sha-bang" when ever I pleased.
If need be, please PM me the info.
TIA
09-23-2003, 05:48 PM
#17
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
Jim,
If you are interested I can sell you my unit for $450. I found a good alignment shop here in FL "Champion Porsche" so I don't need it anymore.
If you are interested I can sell you my unit for $450. I found a good alignment shop here in FL "Champion Porsche" so I don't need it anymore.
09-23-2003, 06:07 PM
#19
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
Jim,
Just to be absolutely sure we are talking about the same thing, below is a picture of the gauge.
I purchased the unit from Autometrics, but never used it. It has few fine scratches on it, I assume Autometrics had used it before.
Just to be absolutely sure we are talking about the same thing, below is a picture of the gauge.
I purchased the unit from Autometrics, but never used it. It has few fine scratches on it, I assume Autometrics had used it before.
09-23-2003, 06:11 PM
#21
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
Jim,
The gauge is all I got, the instruction I had to get from Gordon "Autometrics" verbally.
The number of the units on the measuring bubble is just for reference, you need to match the left to the right, the actually numbers have no meaning what it translate to. Same for the factory tool.
The gauge is all I got, the instruction I had to get from Gordon "Autometrics" verbally.
The number of the units on the measuring bubble is just for reference, you need to match the left to the right, the actually numbers have no meaning what it translate to. Same for the factory tool.
09-23-2003, 06:15 PM
#22
Former Vendor
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tampa
Posts: 6,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kim,
The Porsche guy at Custom Alignment is very cool. He is very smart, and knows how to do more than just hang a tool and read a number. He really gets into the car dynamics, so he uses a little different method for setting the Kinematic toe checking through a range of motion based upon the current chassis geometry. I spent a good hour with him going over some of the suspension pieces and some ideas I had.
This is probably why you have to wait about two weeks to get an appointment there.
Bob
The Porsche guy at Custom Alignment is very cool. He is very smart, and knows how to do more than just hang a tool and read a number. He really gets into the car dynamics, so he uses a little different method for setting the Kinematic toe checking through a range of motion based upon the current chassis geometry. I spent a good hour with him going over some of the suspension pieces and some ideas I had.
This is probably why you have to wait about two weeks to get an appointment there.
Bob
09-24-2003, 04:38 AM
#23
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jim,
Do you have any more info on the use of that tool? I have heard the same "just match left to right" Robin mentions, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
Of course left and right should be the same, but surely you can tweak the kinematic adjusters to get the same readings left and right for many different actual readings?
The factory tool that hangs on the links doesn't go on if you have wider than the std 9" rear wheels, even if you drop the bar. Maybe putting a small enough digital protractor on the two arms that are meant to be parallel is the best option? Opinions/experiences in setting this would be welcomed!
Do you have any more info on the use of that tool? I have heard the same "just match left to right" Robin mentions, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
Of course left and right should be the same, but surely you can tweak the kinematic adjusters to get the same readings left and right for many different actual readings?
The factory tool that hangs on the links doesn't go on if you have wider than the std 9" rear wheels, even if you drop the bar. Maybe putting a small enough digital protractor on the two arms that are meant to be parallel is the best option? Opinions/experiences in setting this would be welcomed!
09-24-2003, 12:09 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John:
Yes, I too am interested in going beyond just left and right side balance.
From my two experiences with the tool, there is a graduated bubble level in the tool along with a chart that allows you convert to the factory manual's "KAL" units.
As I also have access (very limited) to the factory tool, I want to compare the chart, along with the sensitivity of both tools. From there, I want to see if I can produce repaeatable setting changes and readings.
Once I make it through the above, I may post a new thread with the observations.
Regards
Yes, I too am interested in going beyond just left and right side balance.
From my two experiences with the tool, there is a graduated bubble level in the tool along with a chart that allows you convert to the factory manual's "KAL" units.
As I also have access (very limited) to the factory tool, I want to compare the chart, along with the sensitivity of both tools. From there, I want to see if I can produce repaeatable setting changes and readings.
Once I make it through the above, I may post a new thread with the observations.
Regards
11-04-2003, 03:25 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris:
I received the Kine Toe tool from Robin and used it in conjunction with my last alignment. I can say that it was very illumnating to perform changes to the rear arms and watch the tool change. Using the tool as a visual aid made it much easier to see the relationship of the toe/camber arms.
Needless to say, the rear alignment was more time consuming than before. The results, however, were outstanding ! The car has much more balanced left and right hand turn ins and "sets" since the alignment. With my car at RS ride height, we needed to extend the Kine Toe arm about 3/16 further than the stock arm/eccentric allowed. (Please, do not take this as any sort of gospel...)
Although there are many opinions floating around here about how it is possible to set and control the kine toe without some sort of tool, I would be very skeptical of this now that I have used the Autometrics tool during an alignment.
Please note, this is not to say that some "guru"s might not have developed their own methods of measuring and verifying the proper angles without one of the two tools mentioned in this thread. However, if there are no measurements invloved and someone is just "maxing" an eccentric out, I would sure be suspect.
Point here. If I were someone setting up one of our cars, I would sure want to know that the shop doing the alignment had one of these tools (or the Porsche one)...
For Bay Area 993'ers. As Brandon Kraus was so helpful to get my car aligned in time for my rally last month, I have loaned my Autometrics tool to Roger Kraus Racing for use on 993's until I have my own "Smart Strings" alignment setup more complete and readily useable. So, for the time being, Kraus has one of these tools. Also, anyone taking advantage of this fact, owes me a beer, or two !
.02 cents worth
I received the Kine Toe tool from Robin and used it in conjunction with my last alignment. I can say that it was very illumnating to perform changes to the rear arms and watch the tool change. Using the tool as a visual aid made it much easier to see the relationship of the toe/camber arms.
Needless to say, the rear alignment was more time consuming than before. The results, however, were outstanding ! The car has much more balanced left and right hand turn ins and "sets" since the alignment. With my car at RS ride height, we needed to extend the Kine Toe arm about 3/16 further than the stock arm/eccentric allowed. (Please, do not take this as any sort of gospel...)
Although there are many opinions floating around here about how it is possible to set and control the kine toe without some sort of tool, I would be very skeptical of this now that I have used the Autometrics tool during an alignment.
Please note, this is not to say that some "guru"s might not have developed their own methods of measuring and verifying the proper angles without one of the two tools mentioned in this thread. However, if there are no measurements invloved and someone is just "maxing" an eccentric out, I would sure be suspect.
Point here. If I were someone setting up one of our cars, I would sure want to know that the shop doing the alignment had one of these tools (or the Porsche one)...
For Bay Area 993'ers. As Brandon Kraus was so helpful to get my car aligned in time for my rally last month, I have loaned my Autometrics tool to Roger Kraus Racing for use on 993's until I have my own "Smart Strings" alignment setup more complete and readily useable. So, for the time being, Kraus has one of these tools. Also, anyone taking advantage of this fact, owes me a beer, or two !
.02 cents worth
11-04-2003, 04:46 PM
#28
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally posted by Jim Morton
Chris:
With my car at RS ride height, we needed to extend the Kine Toe arm about 3/16 further than the stock arm/eccentric allowed. (Please, do not take this as any sort of gospel...)
Chris:
With my car at RS ride height, we needed to extend the Kine Toe arm about 3/16 further than the stock arm/eccentric allowed. (Please, do not take this as any sort of gospel...)
11-04-2003, 05:12 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
I had my kinematic toe adjusted by a so called suspension expert...on deceleration at speed (the track) the car was very unstable. I then took it back to a shop that had the Porsche kinematic toe tool and all has been well since.
11-04-2003, 05:14 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John:
Per the tools instruction, we went for a deisred reading of 4.5 on the tool (no confirmed relation to the 1.5 KALS of the OEM tool. I still want to do this...).
Danny, Kim:
Yes, I went to the ERP kine toe arms as well as I also opted for the ERP main toe arm as well. Between the ERP arms and the good alignment, the car is better than ever.
I very much want to work in some track days with the car this spring and enjoy this beastie a bunch more. Hopefully the rumors of a Porsche friendly Virginia City Hillclimb will come to be and I can go have some real fun !
Regards
Per the tools instruction, we went for a deisred reading of 4.5 on the tool (no confirmed relation to the 1.5 KALS of the OEM tool. I still want to do this...).
Danny, Kim:
Yes, I went to the ERP kine toe arms as well as I also opted for the ERP main toe arm as well. Between the ERP arms and the good alignment, the car is better than ever.
I very much want to work in some track days with the car this spring and enjoy this beastie a bunch more. Hopefully the rumors of a Porsche friendly Virginia City Hillclimb will come to be and I can go have some real fun !
Regards