I need a "Suspension 101" Education
12-27-2001, 04:44 PM
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I need a "Suspension 101" Education
Several weeks ago, I posted a question about the best ways to improve the performance of my '95 993 Cab. Many of the responses pointed to suspension improvements and as I think about it, that's more of a need right now than more power. The car is driven virtually 100% on the street. I'd like to get the car to handle much better and then maybe attack the options of chips, mufflers, air boxes, etc. in the spring/summer.
The problem is that I know next to nothing about suspension on Porsches. I will likely have a local shop (ie. Euro Motorwerks in Indianapolis unless someone has a different recommendation) do the work for me but I'd like to understand the options first.
I'd like to better understand both the functionality and effect of things like strut braces, sway bars, lowering springs, coil overs (I have no idea what these are), and anything else I should be thinking about. Any specific insights on brands (H&R, Bilstein, Porsche M030 kit) is appreciated but I'm mainly trying to understand this stuff at this point.
What makes sense (& why) to do to this car?
Thanks very much for the help.
The problem is that I know next to nothing about suspension on Porsches. I will likely have a local shop (ie. Euro Motorwerks in Indianapolis unless someone has a different recommendation) do the work for me but I'd like to understand the options first.
I'd like to better understand both the functionality and effect of things like strut braces, sway bars, lowering springs, coil overs (I have no idea what these are), and anything else I should be thinking about. Any specific insights on brands (H&R, Bilstein, Porsche M030 kit) is appreciated but I'm mainly trying to understand this stuff at this point.
What makes sense (& why) to do to this car?
Thanks very much for the help.
12-27-2001, 07:03 PM
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12-27-2001, 07:55 PM
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Rick
Before you start spending money, it may be worthwhile to analyze exactly what you want to accomplish. A stock 993 is an extremely capable car w/street handling capabilities beyond that of most drivers. If you want the "car to handle much better," what is it about the present handling that you find unsatisfactory? E,g., is it lack of steering response, excessive body roll, understeer, loss of traction on broken pavement, brake dive, etc.? The answers, together w/perhaps some expert advise, should help you determine how to proceed.
Just my $.02, FWIW.
Before you start spending money, it may be worthwhile to analyze exactly what you want to accomplish. A stock 993 is an extremely capable car w/street handling capabilities beyond that of most drivers. If you want the "car to handle much better," what is it about the present handling that you find unsatisfactory? E,g., is it lack of steering response, excessive body roll, understeer, loss of traction on broken pavement, brake dive, etc.? The answers, together w/perhaps some expert advise, should help you determine how to proceed.
Just my $.02, FWIW.
12-27-2001, 09:18 PM
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Rick:
Great answer, Dan! You just hit the nail on the head. There are a lot of us who have modified our suspensions and have even tried several different suspensions. Make a prioritized List of what you want to accomplish and what characteristics are important to you and I think you will get some very specific responses.
Hank Cohn
Great answer, Dan! You just hit the nail on the head. There are a lot of us who have modified our suspensions and have even tried several different suspensions. Make a prioritized List of what you want to accomplish and what characteristics are important to you and I think you will get some very specific responses.
Hank Cohn
12-27-2001, 09:36 PM
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Rick,
You have already gotten some great advice so I will not have much to add but here goes..
Look at some recent posts about the shock wear on our cars. It seems pretty evident that the original shocks wear out fairly soon. Your car may just need new factory units, or you may want to look at going with an aftermarket coil-over set up from H&R or Bilstein.
I have noticed that my stock shocks on my street car are not working as well as I would expect, and I will probably change them out in the near future. It is not a big deal since this car is strictly a daily driver.
Head out to Putnam Park for a weekend DE and ask around,or go to a PCA event with the Central Indiana Region. Porsche guys are always willing to talk about their cars!
I will be at Putnam Park many, many times this next year and I will be glad to show you my race car and what you don't want to do to your street car.
Tell Terry what you are going to do with the car and what you don't like and he may have a good suggestion for you.
Greg
You have already gotten some great advice so I will not have much to add but here goes..
Look at some recent posts about the shock wear on our cars. It seems pretty evident that the original shocks wear out fairly soon. Your car may just need new factory units, or you may want to look at going with an aftermarket coil-over set up from H&R or Bilstein.
I have noticed that my stock shocks on my street car are not working as well as I would expect, and I will probably change them out in the near future. It is not a big deal since this car is strictly a daily driver.
Head out to Putnam Park for a weekend DE and ask around,or go to a PCA event with the Central Indiana Region. Porsche guys are always willing to talk about their cars!
I will be at Putnam Park many, many times this next year and I will be glad to show you my race car and what you don't want to do to your street car.
Tell Terry what you are going to do with the car and what you don't like and he may have a good suggestion for you.
Greg
12-27-2001, 09:51 PM
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Hey Rick..
In reading your post the first thing that comes to my mind is. You want your car to handle better. But you say you drive it on the street. I am going to assume that means you have never driven on a track. If I am wrong in making that assumption I apoligize.
Having said that. The best thing you can do to improve handling on your car is behind the wheel. You need some track experience.
No mods or upgrades will come close to increasing the performance of your car as will some track driving and instruction.
So, my recommendation is, upgrade the driver.
You will be amazed what your stock car can do given that it's driven properly.
I have never seen a street driver no matter how good, come close to matching the skills of even a rookie track driver.
And, it's fun as all hell..
In my opinion the most important upgrade any sports car owner should have is a real understanding of weight distribution management and car handling. You can not learn this in the street. Nor will you benefit from upgrading your car without a proper education of what to expect from your car at or near it's limits..
just my opinion..
hope this helps..
In reading your post the first thing that comes to my mind is. You want your car to handle better. But you say you drive it on the street. I am going to assume that means you have never driven on a track. If I am wrong in making that assumption I apoligize.
Having said that. The best thing you can do to improve handling on your car is behind the wheel. You need some track experience.
No mods or upgrades will come close to increasing the performance of your car as will some track driving and instruction.
So, my recommendation is, upgrade the driver.
You will be amazed what your stock car can do given that it's driven properly.
I have never seen a street driver no matter how good, come close to matching the skills of even a rookie track driver.
And, it's fun as all hell..
In my opinion the most important upgrade any sports car owner should have is a real understanding of weight distribution management and car handling. You can not learn this in the street. Nor will you benefit from upgrading your car without a proper education of what to expect from your car at or near it's limits..
just my opinion..
hope this helps..
12-27-2001, 10:01 PM
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Some great points...there are two top things that I'd like to improve. At the top of the list is reducing body roll. Second, I feel like the suspension is a bit choppy and inconsistent right now. Third, I'd like the car to feel tigher during lane changes and overall more stable during reasonably quick driving.
As far as I know, everything on the current suspension is stock. As mentioned in the original post, the car is a '95 993 Cab with just under 21k miles currently.
Thanks again for the help.
As far as I know, everything on the current suspension is stock. As mentioned in the original post, the car is a '95 993 Cab with just under 21k miles currently.
Thanks again for the help.
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12-28-2001, 12:36 AM
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The best thing you can do to improve handling on your car is behind the wheel. You need some track experience.
No mods or upgrades will come close to increasing the performance of your car as will some track driving and instruction.
So, my recommendation is, upgrade the driver.
You will be amazed what your stock car can do given that it's driven properly.
I have never seen a street driver no matter how good, come close to matching the skills of even a rookie track driver.
And, it's fun as all hell..
No mods or upgrades will come close to increasing the performance of your car as will some track driving and instruction.
So, my recommendation is, upgrade the driver.
You will be amazed what your stock car can do given that it's driven properly.
I have never seen a street driver no matter how good, come close to matching the skills of even a rookie track driver.
And, it's fun as all hell..
I took her to three DE events and I had a blast. I got really confident with the car and the way she was behaving, one of my instructors even said that he did not think he could drive my car any harder than I did.
So I just happened to buy my 993 the day prior to a DE. I can tell you that I got a bit scared by the car especially the wobbly feeling i had coming out of certain turns, certainly much different behavior than my 968 and I was doing about 70-80% of the speed I used to do with the 968 the whole event. I felt a bit more comfortable towards the end but still I can not get over a feeling that I have in my butt when the car turns it leans in almost two stages, first slower and suddenly the suspension gets more compressed. That behavior blew me away several times, I ended up loosing my concentration several times it even made me wonder If I had made the right desicion of selling my 968 instead of keeping her for the track!
So I have concluded that maybe my suspension is shot and I'm going to install the PSS-9 with the RS bars.
But is this behavior indicative of a 993 in stock form??? wouldn't someone benefit by switching to a better suspension and then learn the car on the track??? I must tell you that I do not imagine myself on another event with this suspension. The amount of fun I had with the 968 became literally no fun with my 993 and its a shame because I LOVE that flat six on my back and everything else about the 993...
Your thoughts and inputs as always appreciated...
12-28-2001, 02:07 AM
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I went for a balanced sport suspension set from Techart: Bilstein shocks, springs. I also have a strut brace. Roll was vastly improved, but it was only the way I wanted it after installing RS sway bars. The suspension now is pretty stiff, and I feel every pebble on the road. Responsiveness and roadholding is great, though. But not everybody will like it so stiff. My advice: if modifying your suspension, do not do so piecemeal as some combinations might not harmonize well. Find an expert who can recommend a balanced set of options to suit your needs. Also, if possible, test drive a car with those modifications to make sure you can live with the car on a daily basis. The price for a better handling car is loss of comfort.
12-28-2001, 02:47 AM
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Great thread...and Dan and B-line really nailed it IMHO. It remindes me of when I was in high school thrashing around with my guitar in the hunt for the coolest sounding gear. Meanwhile, there was my buddy who had the official pawnshop guitar that, in his hands, would shame all us wannabees.
In stock form, (barring worn out parts), the 993 really is head and shoulders above sooo many cars of even today! No, that doesn't make them perfect, but instead underscores how much greater the responsibility lies with the driver in order to exact all the performance potential. Bear in mind that like so many things, "upgrades" come with SOME kind of trade-off; some are worth it, others not, especially since it sounds like you're on the street more than anything. As others have already mentioned, your desire to "improve" the suspension really has to be refined into more specific concerns: sharper turn in, better balance, better damping, etc. And like the others, I feel more instruction IS the definitive "performance mod." (I eventually sold most of my guitar gear and focused on being a better player. It worked). But most of all, along the way, by all means enjoy your quest and savor each upgrade as if it were manna from heaven...Ok I'll stop now. See what driving this thing has done to me
Edward
In stock form, (barring worn out parts), the 993 really is head and shoulders above sooo many cars of even today! No, that doesn't make them perfect, but instead underscores how much greater the responsibility lies with the driver in order to exact all the performance potential. Bear in mind that like so many things, "upgrades" come with SOME kind of trade-off; some are worth it, others not, especially since it sounds like you're on the street more than anything. As others have already mentioned, your desire to "improve" the suspension really has to be refined into more specific concerns: sharper turn in, better balance, better damping, etc. And like the others, I feel more instruction IS the definitive "performance mod." (I eventually sold most of my guitar gear and focused on being a better player. It worked). But most of all, along the way, by all means enjoy your quest and savor each upgrade as if it were manna from heaven...Ok I'll stop now. See what driving this thing has done to me
Edward
12-28-2001, 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by DJF1:
<STRONG>
I must conquer but I offer the following food for thought to the group: Before I got my 993 I had a 968. My 968 was a bone stock car , non M030 , no limited slip nothing on.
I took her to three DE events and I had a blast. I got really confident with the car and the way she was behaving, one of my instructors even said that he did not think he could drive my car any harder than I did.
So I just happened to buy my 993 the day prior to a DE. I can tell you that I got a bit scared by the car especially the wobbly feeling i had coming out of certain turns, certainly much different behavior than my 968 and I was doing about 70-80% of the speed I used to do with the 968 the whole event. I felt a bit more comfortable towards the end but still I can not get over a feeling that I have in my butt when the car turns it leans in almost two stages, first slower and suddenly the suspension gets more compressed. That behavior blew me away several times, I ended up loosing my concentration several times it even made me wonder If I had made the right desicion of selling my 968 instead of keeping her for the track!
So I have concluded that maybe my suspension is shot and I'm going to install the PSS-9 with the RS bars.
But is this behavior indicative of a 993 in stock form??? wouldn't someone benefit by switching to a better suspension and then learn the car on the track??? I must tell you that I do not imagine myself on another event with this suspension. The amount of fun I had with the 968 became literally no fun with my 993 and its a shame because I LOVE that flat six on my back and everything else about the 993...
Your thoughts and inputs as always appreciated...</STRONG>
<STRONG>
I must conquer but I offer the following food for thought to the group: Before I got my 993 I had a 968. My 968 was a bone stock car , non M030 , no limited slip nothing on.
I took her to three DE events and I had a blast. I got really confident with the car and the way she was behaving, one of my instructors even said that he did not think he could drive my car any harder than I did.
So I just happened to buy my 993 the day prior to a DE. I can tell you that I got a bit scared by the car especially the wobbly feeling i had coming out of certain turns, certainly much different behavior than my 968 and I was doing about 70-80% of the speed I used to do with the 968 the whole event. I felt a bit more comfortable towards the end but still I can not get over a feeling that I have in my butt when the car turns it leans in almost two stages, first slower and suddenly the suspension gets more compressed. That behavior blew me away several times, I ended up loosing my concentration several times it even made me wonder If I had made the right desicion of selling my 968 instead of keeping her for the track!
So I have concluded that maybe my suspension is shot and I'm going to install the PSS-9 with the RS bars.
But is this behavior indicative of a 993 in stock form??? wouldn't someone benefit by switching to a better suspension and then learn the car on the track??? I must tell you that I do not imagine myself on another event with this suspension. The amount of fun I had with the 968 became literally no fun with my 993 and its a shame because I LOVE that flat six on my back and everything else about the 993...
Your thoughts and inputs as always appreciated...</STRONG>
I once took a guy that has raced bmws for the last 4 years for a ride (he had never been in a 911 on the track) and he was blown away. His exact quote was: "I can't believe the huge slip angles this car requires." Thought that was pretty cool.
With that said, I would give it another try and also get the suspension looked at very closely. Might have something loose our a bad sway bar bushing to cause your body roll. I have never noticed the two stage roll that you are referring to.
Good luck, YMMV.
E. J.
12-28-2001, 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by E. J.:
<STRONG>
His exact quote was: "I can't believe the huge slip angles this car requires." Thought that was pretty cool.
</STRONG>
<STRONG>
His exact quote was: "I can't believe the huge slip angles this car requires." Thought that was pretty cool.
</STRONG>
12-28-2001, 02:10 PM
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Almost sounds like you were trying TOO hard. Have an instructor familiiar with the 911 and specifically the 993 help you out at your next de and I am sure you will feel better.
I thank all of you for your valuable comments. It seems that maybe I may not need the PSS-9 maybe a euro M030 will suffice. In any case I would hate to change the stock shocks only to find that the car will continue behaving like this. I will certainly get the suspension looked at maybe at the specialty shops who support the LSR.
Thanks again.
12-28-2001, 02:21 PM
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DFJ1,
Are you going to be at the TWS PCA DE in January? If all goes as planned & I start instructing next month, I should be able to take you out for a ride in my '96 coupe, w. RoW M030 suspension for comparison.
RNH
Are you going to be at the TWS PCA DE in January? If all goes as planned & I start instructing next month, I should be able to take you out for a ride in my '96 coupe, w. RoW M030 suspension for comparison.
RNH
12-28-2001, 02:24 PM
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When I had a 993 C2, I experienced something similar before I changed to M030. The car would take its normal set, but with throttle added, it would sort of roll and 'bind'. It felt like it was pitching from rear corner to opposite front corner. It didn't happen often (onb the street) and I did M030 before it saw the track. I suspect one corner of the suspension was bottoming and that caused the rather abrupt change in handling.