E. J. - 993 Alumni

Nothing is meant by this but a simple question: Are you turning in at the turn in point and then turning MORE or AGAIN to get to the apex? I am not sure from your post and will wait for your response before elaborating.


Are you describing understeer here? I am not familiar with this track at all (I found the track maps but don't know what configuration you were running to know what turns 6 and 7 are like). If you ARE describing understeer, that is a normal characteristic of our cars, especially in street trim.

E. J.

Greg Fishman

Here is another good website for info on suspensions and how they work, etc. www.lemd.com
Does anyone know about these guys? Where they are located,etc?
Greg

DJF1

To begin with thanks to all you guys for trying to help me!
Robert I will not be attending the DE in January. My work takes me overseas and I will not be unfortunately home for the event.However I will try to fly in for the weekend in March so hopefully I will take you up on your offer!

EJ: Turn 7 is a left uphill fast turn with a nice positive camber on the apex so when you take the corner right it is like you are on an oval. It is I guess a 45 degree turn with opening radius at the end. So there I keep the car at a constant turn rate, no corrections, no more turn in at the apex, just one fluid motion when i turn in, on the throttle steady doing around 70-80 miles an hour. the car leans initially and then when you think that this is it it leans more and very suddenly! Maybe I'm describing what Mark described. With my 968 I was doing about 90 miles an hour without the two stage compression.

Regarding turn six this is a tedius dive in corner and traction there is not very good. Again one motion turn in, no throwing the car steady on the throttle till almost the track out point. There I will apply progressively more throttle the car understeers momentarily, loads the rear because of the throttle and then pretty much what Mark D describes happens. Hence the wobbly, bouncy feeling i get which i did not have with the 968. I'm not saying that the car is bad etc. I guess just different! I would really like though to get a more linear feeling from the car movements that will tell me when I'm about to loose the front or rear end of the car. Now that I think of it. I have the SO 2's on. Are these the most progressive ones on the limit?
As you realize I would really hate for my car to snap oversteer or understeer without warning. So all these thoughts are running through my head so i can identify and assosiate clearly the warnings that my 993 will give me. That is why I always try to be extra smooth with the car... all that weight in the back demands respect.
Thanks again guys.

E. J. - 993 Alumni

After hearing your explanation, I would have an instructor with a 993 drive your car at the track next time. It sounds like something is going on and typing about it might not diagnose it. I would not worry about it until someone else can feel what you are describing.

Good luck,

E. J.

Robert Henriksen

What EJ said

I fly into turn 7 at 100+ and accelerate once I get settled into the turn. Six, dunno about the speed but don't get much excitement.

See if you can get Viking to drive your car - that'd be ideal, since he's both the track event chair & a Porsche mechanic! If you can't get the time out of his day, you can always settle for me. I won't be able to diagnose it precisely; you'll probably get, "Damn - that's messed up!"

For those of you not in the Lone Star region, yes, that really is his name!

DJF1

Good advise guys!
Robert I'm jealous! 100+ ... This turn along with turn 1 were always the scariest!
But also the most exiting ones too!!!Hold your breath and dive!!!
I certainly now have something to look forward!!!!
I was thinking of taking my car to Viking at his shop for the suspension worries I have!
Robert, I look forward to meeting you on the track!
E.J thanks a lot for your advise

Robert Henriksen

I almost spun my car (which could have meant flying off the top of the banking sideways ) in 7 last October! I made a late pass & when it was time to turn in, I realized I was about 5 mph over my comfort zone (100 instead of 95)... but it was too late to do anything but turn in. So... I tried to have it both ways, turned in AND tried to lift.

I think that was my finest DJ-moment going through 7 at something between 90 - 95 with as much opposite lock as my arms would allow! Even at the time, I knew in the back of my head that the *car* could have zipped through 7 at 100+ comfortably; but I wasn't ready myself.

That's the moment I decided I needed to break down & buy a rollbar

One of the things that makes 7 interesting when you really start to push it is a patch of asphalt at the apex that has less traction. You set up the car at turn in with a certain line & slip angles, and then have to make a pretty noticeable correction at speed during the turn. That, and the monster big pothole just off the pavement at the apex - instant broken wheel for sure! Then somebody filled it with dirt early December, and everyone started driving on that - which covered the 8 feet or so of pavement at the apex with a fine layer of dust/dirt/sand. Thanks, guys!


Oh, and FWIW Viking just finished touching up the suspension & doing some weight balancing on my car a couple of weeks ago. I'm looking forward to feeling the results next month.

Rick

Thank you all for the excellent input - it has been very helpful. The information provided thus far and the web sites you've pointed me to have been very helpful. This alone has convinced me that a Rennlist membership is a must - I just signed on on-line.
I'm committed to two things as part of this venture - addressing the entire system (not just a part) which will certainly include anti-roll bars and a strut tower brace. Most importantly, I will be looking forward to some additional driver education. At some point, I expect to have this car on the track a reasonable amount so I want to try to do this right the first time.

Can anyone provide me with their thoughts from their personal experience with the various options available? What were you trying to accomplish, what did you install and what are your thoughts with the new system?

How does the M030 RoW compare in handling & ride quality to the original equipment? I haven't been able to locate anything that provides the spring rates for the M030 (I understand that the stock system was 150-200 front and 225-275 rear).

Fundamentally, what am I going to gain by stepping up to coil overs?

I've been trying to draw some comparisons between the H&R system and the PSS-9 system. There is a noticable difference in spring rates between the two systems (290-310/350-370 for H&R, 225-250/400-685 for PSS-9). How do these systems really compare to each other? I notice that the PSS-9 is adjustable (are the others not?). I'd really appreciate some first hand experience with these systems.

Anyone in the IL, IN, KY, OH area with any of these on their car? Would you mind a visit?

Again, thank you very much.

Anir

Rick,

Greg Fishman and I live in Lexington, KY, and spent several weekends at Putnam Park last year. Greg actually knows Terry Heath from Euro Motorwerke pretty well, and speaks very highly of him.

I plan to install the Bilstein PSS-9 system on my car within the next two months, so I'd be happy to let you check it out this spring if you can stand the wait! I currently have the stock springs and soft Eibach 7209 springs (rated at about 120-200 lb, and installed by the previous owner), and there is definite room for improvement.

I chose the PSS-9 because my car is a daily driver, and I like the idea of adjustability (tighten up for the track), and the idea of dual springs which makes for a less jarring ride around town. It's the closest thing you can get to a perfect compromise in a dual-purpose car.

When "resources allow" (i.e. my wife gives me permission! ), I plan to buy a dedicated track car. If you get a chance to ride in Greg's track-only 993 NA with JRZ suspension, 275's front, 305's rear, etc, etc, you'll know what I mean!

Look forward to meeting you.

bet

Rick,

Check out Robin’s web site www.p-car.com . It has a pretty comprehensive FAQ on suspension choices for the 993. And the people who have provided the answers (Viken and Steve W.) seem to be more than willing to answer your specific questions and concerns via email.

I have been debating the same question you have of coilover system (PSS-9's to be specific) or the RoW M030 set up. I think I have decided on the PSS-9's for a many reasons. One is the OEM shocks don’t seem to last (including the RoW M030) and I like the adjustability of the Bilstien’s because like Anir my car is a daily driver and I want to do some track time with it also.

B-Line home

Hey Rick..
IMHO, you said you were going to go to some driving events and get some instruction which I think is the best thing you can do.
You will love it. You will also use your car for the purpose it was built, to be driven.
Furthermore, I want to add that modding is addictive as we all know. I do think if your not happy with you suspension you should definately make some changes.
But, before you go dumping money into the suspension, it's probably a good idea to drive it stock first on the track.
The suspension will change some of the characteristics of the car. It will make it handle better but, it will also decrease the amount of driver error you might like to have.
In otherwords, it's much easier to understand what a car is doing when it has roll and push. If you take those things away in the beginning, potentially, you might not be able to tell as easily that the car is going to break loose. And if it does start to break loose, how to control it.
Most cars are specifically designed to understeer some what from the factory because it's a bit easier to control than oversteer for an inexperienced driver.
So, if you mod your suspension, you are learning to run before you walk.
Once you have some experience under your belt and you can predict how the car will handle, then it's time to upgrade.
Otherwise you are likely to push the car beyond it's limits and not know it's coming.
Stock is much more forgiving.
good luck..and just my opinion..

Robert Henriksen

What B-Line said.

I made a progressive series of changes to my car, and was really glad I did. I feel a lot better informed about the impact of each change:

two track weekends completely stock, street tires

two weekends with RoW M030 suspension, increased front camber to -1

added front strut brace - wow!

switched to Kuhmos & track wheels after the first year of track events.

RNH

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Robert, that is a great upgrade for the track regemin. I wish more students waited a year before changing to R tires.'

E. J.

Anir

EJ and Robert,

Greg emphasized the same point to me during my first three track weekends this year - all done on my street suspension with S-02s. Good advice.

I do have a nice set of Pirelli P-Zero C's "chomping at the bit" in the basement for next season, though!

SundayDriver

Robert & EJ are right on target.

R-Compound tires let you go faster and have more drastic break-away characteristics. This allows a novice to:
1. Loose control more easily.
2. Have a harder time regaining control.
3. Have higher speeds when they are out of control and perhaps crash.

Much better to stay with more forgiving street tires until the student is able to drive those to the limits.