billh1963

As I replaced my mufflers this last weekend with some RSR's I appreciated the fine details of the design...the tabs to hold the mufflers on the brackets, the "donuts" and clamps to make the connections easy and secure, the use of stainless steel to eliminate rust problems, etc. and it occured to me how much thought must have gone into the design. Compared to the many British cars I have owned and worked on in times past you can imagine how enjoyable I found this experience to be.

While I was looking under the car I also took some time to study the engine and drivetrain pieces that were visible and could really feel that time was spent making sure that each piece was the best that it could be.

When I get into my 993 I feel like the car has been literally carved from a chunk of granite. Quality exudes from every facet of the drive...whether it be closing the door or taking my favorite decreasing radius interstate ramp at a speed that I would have to change my clothes afterwards in my other cars.

I have read in many books and articles that the last of the air cooled 911's were really over-engineered (which made the cost to produce the car too high). I assume that the muffler design was just a small piece of that. Has this over-engineering carried over into the 986 and 996? I have limited exposure to the 996 but I didn't sense that over-engineered presence.

Dave Crellin

I think it has not carried over to the 986/996 in quite the same way. This is also true of MBZ I believe.

The key difference in cost of the 993-996 change was in build costs. Porsche employed Japanese auto experts to help improve eh build process to massively reduce the number of hours to build. This resulted in the 996 coming out about the same price (if not a little lower on list price, even) as the 993 (in the UK anyway). You can see this in things like the doors. Feel under your inside door handle and you can feel the bolt heads. In the 996, there is nothing becuase the handles as clipped on with plastic clips.

This has reached the ultimate in the CAyenna. The center console box lid is unbelievably bad. It wobble about 1/2 inch side to side. In a $70k car.

So I think mechanically the 996/986 is still top drawer. But everything else, sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

Greg D.

>A new 993 engine is on the order of +$30K a new 996 engine is on the order of +$10K....


Are you serious ? Wow ! What is it made of, platinum? Why so much more than an 80s carrera engine ? Thanks, I feel like I have a ticking time bomb on the back of my car now ;-)

Greg Fishman

Same kind of comparison for the 993 vs 996 transmission. The 996's is pretty much a throw away, non-servicable unit. Where the 993 is a very close derivative of the race car version and more durable.

billh1963

I wonder why the engine cost difference? Is there a difference in tolerances, metallurgy, or some other factor?

ca993twin

It is a well known fact that the 996 uses Pinto engines that were surplused by Ford in the 1980s. No? OK, its a well known fact the the 996 engine is made entirely of poly carbonate and the entire thing is extruded in one large piece. Still no takers?

Actually, I believe its a labor issue... the older 911s were basically all hand bult, and the new ones are assembled by robots. Very efficient, fast assembly, vastly reducing costs.

Fred R. C4S

It once was said that every 911 to leave the factory was a race car. I think that with the exception of the GT3 and GT2, this axiom may have stopped with the end of 993 production. Who else hand builds and dyno tests each and every engine? Who else road tests every car after final assembly? How many "production" cars come with dry sump lubrication systems? How many "production" cars come with transaxles that can be geared to suit the application? How many production cars come with fully inexpedient multi link suspensions? OK, some cars may come with some of these items but how many have them all? Other than 2 Italian marques, I can't think of any other. And I'm not sure that you can classify them as "production" builders.

By the way, Porsche removed quite bit of cost to build with the 993 vs. the 964. They just took things much farther with the 986 and 996. At introduction the 993 listed for thousands less than the outgoing 964.

Cheers,

adsc4s

Overengineered? Absolutely, from a technological point of view. However, I cannot stand the window switches. They are cheap POS on a $70K car! However, until they break, obviously not much to quibble about.

billh1963

You’re right, Fred. I remember hearing “every 911 is a race car” as well. And when you heard it you knew that was true.

This has been beat to death but I’m saddened by the direction the marque is going. I have to admit that in my youth I wanted a Porsche for the “bling” factor. After I graduated college with my engineering degrees, however, I started appreciating Porsche for their racing prowess and their technical accomplishments. After all, who couldn’t help but notice Porsche winning championships on every continent and in every venue?

When I turned 40 this year I decided it was time to reward myself with a Porsche. I wanted the newest one I could afford, but, the marque had changed. When I went looking for a car I found the 911 (in my opinion) had “devolved” into a boulevard cruising dot com bling machine. Yes, we know from the 996 board the claims that the 996 is faster, smoother, and can kick my C4S’ ***… and it probably can. But, you know what? I DON”T CARE! I bought the 993 because it is the last of the breed. It is also one of the best looking Porsche’s made!

I look forward to the 997. Maybe it will capture some of the mystique. However, I’m afraid that something has been lost. Ferrari, Maserati, Lotus, Lamborghini (with the possible exception of the LM002), etc. don’t make SUV’s. What do they know that Porsche doesn’t?

My only hope is that we don’t get to the point where we see some bloated Porsche plated plastic jelly bean with a fart can muffler blasting down the road some day and I have to turn to my grandchildren and say, “You know, that company used to make a car that mattered.”

Sorry for the vent

Jack Ennuste

Exactly, Its like in watch industry. Hand-built watches are very valued because of uniqueness and manual labor.

Dave Crellin

little OT, but makes the point....
I went to the local VW dealer to get a Passat cup holder (!), and had a glance at the new Toureg. Having driven the Cayenne recently I was surpirsed. The VW is much more well built inside and SO much less expensive.

Another case of Porsche relying on the brand, rather than building the brand, just like the subject of this thread

Hubert

The cayanne is (apparently) close to 80% "made" by VW at the shared plant. I think the tourag is actually pretty cool, and with it's ability to tow a decent load, wouldn't make a bad tow vehicle.
I do like the 996's more, aesthetically, but prefer to err on the side of simplicity, and track a 993.

Jack Ennuste

Hubert, Yeah, I agree. Cost cutting is one of the most visible thing in auto industry. Design is good but closer examination shows huge savings in assembly and matherials. Wobbling console was good example and not only one.

Hubert

Jack: you're right. The shape and lines of the 996 are gorgeous, in my opinion of course. But, it's a different 911 then it used to be. Times change, and , I guess, so do porsches.

billh1963

I don't mind change...change can be good in the right context. The evolution of the air-cooled 911 is an example of that.

A revolutionary departure from the very attributes that made Porsche great, however, is not so good. The change over to water cooled engines might have been a necessary evolutionary step to get the horsepower, emissions, and costs under control. The sacrifice on build quality and loss of identity is a bigger issue in my opinion.

I agree with you, Jack, about the changes in watches. As a collector of watches (and a frequent visitor to Timezone.com) I wear automatic (vs. quartz) watches exclusively. Why? Because, although a $20 quartz watch from COSTCO will keep more accurate time than my IWC, Sinn, Rolex, Omega, etc. watches ever will the quartz watches I have seen "have no soul". Maybe that's the real issue.

The 993 "talks to me". I literally feel a tingle down my spine when I look at my C4S. The 996 reminds me of a Taurus on steroids.