OT: E39 M5
11-07-2013, 03:38 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
OT: E39 M5
So I have been getting some flack around home about how the family cannot all fit in my car. I was originally thinking about selling it and getting something like an E39 M5, but the more I have thought about it, I would prefer to keep the 993 and maybe add the M5 (all of which is moot until I am back working though).
Anyway, that leads to one of my questions--m5board.com seems to have a huge wealth of information on the cars. For anyone who is a member there, what is a reasonably amount of time for a new account to be activated? I registered over the weekend, however it still hasn't been approved by a moderator, so it isn't possible to post and ask any questions...
For those who have had one of these beasts, from a cost of ownership, what should someone be looking at? 2x the annual running costs of a n/a 993 sound reasonable?
Anyway, that leads to one of my questions--m5board.com seems to have a huge wealth of information on the cars. For anyone who is a member there, what is a reasonably amount of time for a new account to be activated? I registered over the weekend, however it still hasn't been approved by a moderator, so it isn't possible to post and ask any questions...
For those who have had one of these beasts, from a cost of ownership, what should someone be looking at? 2x the annual running costs of a n/a 993 sound reasonable?
11-07-2013, 03:57 PM
#2
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I don't actually own one, but I am fairly involved in the maintenance of three.
From a reliability standpoint, the S62 actually fixes the most egregious problems of the M62 (540i). The downside is that you get a very complicated VANOS (variable valve timing) setup that needs attention (the parts needed are very cheap from Beisan Systems, but the labor required is large if you can't re-time your cams), and a very finicky engine management system that eats MAFs and sensors. Many people solve the MAF problem by using an Alpha-N tune, but this does make the car very sensitive to the condition of the remaining sensors.
Chassis wise, the issue is that it has a very complex suspension with many parts (kind of like the 993), and they will likely all be worn out by now. On the plus side, BMW suspension parts are a hell of a lot less expensive.
The big, big, big issue with the E39 M5 is that it has slop box (recirculating ball) steering. You know, like a pickup truck. Nothing that you can do will make the steering anything other than numb, with some unpleasant bump steer characteristics. The steering is so bad that I honestly struggle with whether I prefer the M5 to Mike's old 3.0 swapped 528 wagon. The six cylinder cars got rack and pinion, so there's a real sacrifice for power.
Once you deal with the normal issues, the car is pretty reliable. The engine bay can be very tight, as a DOHC V8 is HUGE, but that's nothing a Porsche owner will be surprised by.
From a reliability standpoint, the S62 actually fixes the most egregious problems of the M62 (540i). The downside is that you get a very complicated VANOS (variable valve timing) setup that needs attention (the parts needed are very cheap from Beisan Systems, but the labor required is large if you can't re-time your cams), and a very finicky engine management system that eats MAFs and sensors. Many people solve the MAF problem by using an Alpha-N tune, but this does make the car very sensitive to the condition of the remaining sensors.
Chassis wise, the issue is that it has a very complex suspension with many parts (kind of like the 993), and they will likely all be worn out by now. On the plus side, BMW suspension parts are a hell of a lot less expensive.
The big, big, big issue with the E39 M5 is that it has slop box (recirculating ball) steering. You know, like a pickup truck. Nothing that you can do will make the steering anything other than numb, with some unpleasant bump steer characteristics. The steering is so bad that I honestly struggle with whether I prefer the M5 to Mike's old 3.0 swapped 528 wagon. The six cylinder cars got rack and pinion, so there's a real sacrifice for power.
Once you deal with the normal issues, the car is pretty reliable. The engine bay can be very tight, as a DOHC V8 is HUGE, but that's nothing a Porsche owner will be surprised by.
11-07-2013, 04:04 PM
#3
I'm member over there but I do frequent the e34 M5 section because I own one. My account didn't take much time to get it activated. What's your nickname? Perhaps I can contact a MOD to allow you to get in faster.
11-07-2013, 04:07 PM
#4
Damn, just noticed the e39 M5 got steering box as well. I thought the e39 had steering rack instead lol
The M5 6 cyl. version (e28 and e34) does have steering box as well.
The M5 6 cyl. version (e28 and e34) does have steering box as well.
11-07-2013, 05:18 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input guys! Diego, I am "bsl" over there too.
Part of the initial appeal was for a fun-to-drive car that would be close in price to what I can get for the 993. Originally thinking of selling it and getting back into a 993 in a couple of years. Just not ready to let my car go I guess, so will look toward adding instead of substituting.
Part of the initial appeal was for a fun-to-drive car that would be close in price to what I can get for the 993. Originally thinking of selling it and getting back into a 993 in a couple of years. Just not ready to let my car go I guess, so will look toward adding instead of substituting.
11-07-2013, 05:20 PM
#6
I don't actually own one, but I am fairly involved in the maintenance of three.
From a reliability standpoint, the S62 actually fixes the most egregious problems of the M62 (540i). The downside is that you get a very complicated VANOS (variable valve timing) setup that needs attention (the parts needed are very cheap from Beisan Systems, but the labor required is large if you can't re-time your cams), and a very finicky engine management system that eats MAFs and sensors. Many people solve the MAF problem by using an Alpha-N tune, but this does make the car very sensitive to the condition of the remaining sensors.
Chassis wise, the issue is that it has a very complex suspension with many parts (kind of like the 993), and they will likely all be worn out by now. On the plus side, BMW suspension parts are a hell of a lot less expensive.
The big, big, big issue with the E39 M5 is that it has slop box (recirculating ball) steering. You know, like a pickup truck. Nothing that you can do will make the steering anything other than numb, with some unpleasant bump steer characteristics. The steering is so bad that I honestly struggle with whether I prefer the M5 to Mike's old 3.0 swapped 528 wagon. The six cylinder cars got rack and pinion, so there's a real sacrifice for power.
Once you deal with the normal issues, the car is pretty reliable. The engine bay can be very tight, as a DOHC V8 is HUGE, but that's nothing a Porsche owner will be surprised by.
From a reliability standpoint, the S62 actually fixes the most egregious problems of the M62 (540i). The downside is that you get a very complicated VANOS (variable valve timing) setup that needs attention (the parts needed are very cheap from Beisan Systems, but the labor required is large if you can't re-time your cams), and a very finicky engine management system that eats MAFs and sensors. Many people solve the MAF problem by using an Alpha-N tune, but this does make the car very sensitive to the condition of the remaining sensors.
Chassis wise, the issue is that it has a very complex suspension with many parts (kind of like the 993), and they will likely all be worn out by now. On the plus side, BMW suspension parts are a hell of a lot less expensive.
The big, big, big issue with the E39 M5 is that it has slop box (recirculating ball) steering. You know, like a pickup truck. Nothing that you can do will make the steering anything other than numb, with some unpleasant bump steer characteristics. The steering is so bad that I honestly struggle with whether I prefer the M5 to Mike's old 3.0 swapped 528 wagon. The six cylinder cars got rack and pinion, so there's a real sacrifice for power.
Once you deal with the normal issues, the car is pretty reliable. The engine bay can be very tight, as a DOHC V8 is HUGE, but that's nothing a Porsche owner will be surprised by.
I'm very picky about steering feel and frankly it's not in the same realm as your typical Porsche steering. However, I don't find the M5 steering any worse than many other rack and pinion BMWs. In fact, I think it's a lot better than the E46 M3 steering (I used to own an E46 M3 which I did not like at all). At the least the M5 steering is properly weighted if not as communicative as I'd like.
Just don't think of the M5 as a substitute for a 993. In addition to the steering, the brakes and handling are simply not on the same plain. But, for what it is, it's a great car. There is no sedan which I'd rather have.
Cheers
Joe
11-07-2013, 05:21 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
I bot a 2001 E39 Dinan S3 (they took an M5 and supercharged it and a ton of other tweaks). Rated north of 600+Hp and over 500 lb-fts of tq. Here are my observations
1) the E39 chassis is superb. The adj susp Dinan put on it only accentuates how good it is. The bad steering box I think is overblown. It's not as good as it could be, but it doesn't ruin the driving experience.
2) the engine is sublime. Truly one of the best V8s ever made
3) maintenance is on par w German car ownership, but properly maintained shouldn't be any worse than any other car (more likely much better). Plus, the m5board is a phenomenal resource, with a huge library of DIY and a very active community.
4) with the Dinan mods, it's as fast as my lightly modded 993tt. Think about that for a second! It is a downright scary fast beast.
Bottom line: It's a great great sedan.
PM me, as I may be looking to trim a few cars and evaluating everything except for the 993.
1) the E39 chassis is superb. The adj susp Dinan put on it only accentuates how good it is. The bad steering box I think is overblown. It's not as good as it could be, but it doesn't ruin the driving experience.
2) the engine is sublime. Truly one of the best V8s ever made
3) maintenance is on par w German car ownership, but properly maintained shouldn't be any worse than any other car (more likely much better). Plus, the m5board is a phenomenal resource, with a huge library of DIY and a very active community.
4) with the Dinan mods, it's as fast as my lightly modded 993tt. Think about that for a second! It is a downright scary fast beast.
Bottom line: It's a great great sedan.
PM me, as I may be looking to trim a few cars and evaluating everything except for the 993.
Trending Topics
11-07-2013, 05:23 PM
#8
Tanger,
Curious about your perspective of the RS4 vs the E39 M5 since you own both. Given that a manual is mandatory for me, the RS4 is the only potential substitute for the M5.
Cheers
Joe
Curious about your perspective of the RS4 vs the E39 M5 since you own both. Given that a manual is mandatory for me, the RS4 is the only potential substitute for the M5.
Cheers
Joe
11-07-2013, 05:26 PM
#9
Race Director
had one, absolutely hated it. Decent at some stuff, excellent at basically nothing. My early 2000 chewed through 10w-60 like me with a pint of guinness. The car looked good, the interior design is nice, and mine didn't break much (had an extended warranty anyway), but I just really did not like it.
11-07-2013, 05:48 PM
#10
Early 2000s had oil control issues. Later 2000 and newer got redesigned rings. My 135K mile late 2000 model uses a quart every 1K miles.
The car could definitely be improved, but it's better most than everything else out there if you desire a manual transmission. Porsche likely would have done it better if they had been in the game.
The car could definitely be improved, but it's better most than everything else out there if you desire a manual transmission. Porsche likely would have done it better if they had been in the game.
11-07-2013, 06:01 PM
#11
No M5 but did have a '98 540i Sport for a while a few years back. Only thing that I can contribute is that the steering (same recirculating ball as the M5) was not that bad as some make it out to be. On the BMW boards the E39 528i guys liked to think they had the superior performing car with their rack and pinion over the 540i guys. But the smash of the V8 more than makes up for any deficiency there, if there really is any. Can only imagine the smash of the E39 M5.
I did track my 540i one weekend and had a ball in it. It was a fun car.
I did track my 540i one weekend and had a ball in it. It was a fun car.
11-07-2013, 06:21 PM
#12
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I acquired it with an illuminated CEL for the SAI pump but it had no impact on performance, economy or reliability so I never addressed it. That was the only fault the car exhibited over my tenure with it. Oh, aside from the cupholders - what flaming crap. Mine sipped a bit of oil, I'd add half a quart between 6k mile changes, but nothing like the horror stories some tell. All the pixels still worked on the OBC and the Vanos never gave me any trouble. I was lucky that the PO had very recently replaced nearly all the rubber bits so I missed some expense there but even if I had to add that my ownership experience would have remained quite reasonable over the duration.
Loved the car, but finally sold it at ~140k miles when I started flying for work after it sat unused in the garage for 3 straight months. Current owner stays in touch and it now has about 175k similarly trouble-free miles.
I now find myself in similar circumstances to you: my girls don't appreciate getting to ride to school in a 993, they just complain it's cramped and they have to climb over the seats to get out, so I am contemplating purchasing another M5.
E60M5s (the ugly V-10s) haven't finished depreciating yet to a point I'm comfortable with and also it hasn't proven itself as durable as the V-8 nor is the styling as classically handsome. Given my requirement of a manual transmission, little else matches the combination of value, durability and performance an E39M5 offers so I'm searching for another high-mileage example with documented maintenance history. Or _maybe_ an LS6 CTS-V
Best of luck with your search.
Christian
'95 Carrera
11-07-2013, 06:39 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
It's a older car and a ///M car. They usually cost 3X as much as a non-M BMW. The E39 is a great chassis and car. Yes, they have coolant issues, some eat oil, and yes the MAF's don't tend to last long. If you do extended oil changes and lots of short trips & Stop & go. The Vanos will act up.
I was in this dilemma this time last year. My 95 C4 was just getting too small as my Daughter was getting bigger. I decided to buy a grown up car. The E39 M5 was on my list as I've always loved them.
They are easier to work on then the 993, parts cost about the same, and there is a wealth of knowledge out there about them. They also have a good following. Plus there are a TON of fun aftermarket stuff you can do to the car.
With all that being said,I purchased a 08 E60 M5. V10 vs. V8, 500+hp much nicer interior and much nicer gadgets. Plus mine has a 100kmi warranty. The cost was only about $15k more then a similar condition E39 M5.
I was in this dilemma this time last year. My 95 C4 was just getting too small as my Daughter was getting bigger. I decided to buy a grown up car. The E39 M5 was on my list as I've always loved them.
They are easier to work on then the 993, parts cost about the same, and there is a wealth of knowledge out there about them. They also have a good following. Plus there are a TON of fun aftermarket stuff you can do to the car.
With all that being said,I purchased a 08 E60 M5. V10 vs. V8, 500+hp much nicer interior and much nicer gadgets. Plus mine has a 100kmi warranty. The cost was only about $15k more then a similar condition E39 M5.
11-07-2013, 06:58 PM
#14
I own an E36 Vert, which I had serviced some time back at Dinan. I had to replace a catalytic converter at the cost of $2K+.
One, I remember the service advisor telling me that I should be happy that I didn't have an M5, which has two catalytic converters, which if both needed to be replaced cost about $5K. Two, I remember the Dinan shuttle ride in a Toyota/Scion and asked the shuttle driver why would Dinan have Toyota/Scion's for shuttle cars. The shuttle driver responded that BMW's are too expensive to maintain.
One, I remember the service advisor telling me that I should be happy that I didn't have an M5, which has two catalytic converters, which if both needed to be replaced cost about $5K. Two, I remember the Dinan shuttle ride in a Toyota/Scion and asked the shuttle driver why would Dinan have Toyota/Scion's for shuttle cars. The shuttle driver responded that BMW's are too expensive to maintain.