Pros and cons of 3.8
10-24-2013, 10:07 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
Money and value will be held in different esteem by each of us
As someone that has done the motor(3.8RS), the trans(g50/30Cup/RSR), and weight loss(~2700#) The car is a totally different and totally satisfying animal than what it was when I bought it. The goal was to approximate a Cup car(I do 2-3k track mi a year) while staying street legal(sortof). I think that I succeeded, money was not the primary concern, the result was, I think that if resale is a primary concern go buy a Cayman S or 991S and let the car do more of the work but if you want to retain old school involvement w/ increased performance a project like this whether you start w/ a 911, 964 or 993 is very rewarding
BTW in the latest Pano there is a great article on Leh Keen's '95 993Cup and it's history w/ him and his Dad. A great read
As someone that has done the motor(3.8RS), the trans(g50/30Cup/RSR), and weight loss(~2700#) The car is a totally different and totally satisfying animal than what it was when I bought it. The goal was to approximate a Cup car(I do 2-3k track mi a year) while staying street legal(sortof). I think that I succeeded, money was not the primary concern, the result was, I think that if resale is a primary concern go buy a Cayman S or 991S and let the car do more of the work but if you want to retain old school involvement w/ increased performance a project like this whether you start w/ a 911, 964 or 993 is very rewarding
BTW in the latest Pano there is a great article on Leh Keen's '95 993Cup and it's history w/ him and his Dad. A great read
10-24-2013, 03:17 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Not tough to find, but how can you even think of treading into that end of the engine modification zone without working with an expert in air cooled 911s? The throttle bodies themselves are probably only 25% of the total cost, and that's not even considering going into the engine itself.
Not having met Bill, I'll throw out a wild observation that he's smarter than that.
Who in his right mind would take on the responsibility of becoming an expert in these things with the satisfaction of being outearned by your average Jiffy Lube "technician"? Yeah, I'm serious. Point me to where someone not running a shop on a massive scale (street cars or racing) is able to earn what "we" earn, year in and year out.
I certainly did OK in my 20's and 30's fussing with 911s. Again? Only if it's truly a hobby where I'd be more into working with appreciative customers, and didn't even have to consider if I were making money.
Who in his right mind would take on the responsibility of becoming an expert in these things with the satisfaction of being outearned by your average Jiffy Lube "technician"? Yeah, I'm serious. Point me to where someone not running a shop on a massive scale (street cars or racing) is able to earn what "we" earn, year in and year out.
I certainly did OK in my 20's and 30's fussing with 911s. Again? Only if it's truly a hobby where I'd be more into working with appreciative customers, and didn't even have to consider if I were making money.
10-24-2013, 04:41 PM
#63
I take mine to guys that really know what they are doing
10-24-2013, 05:09 PM
#64
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10-24-2013, 05:12 PM
#65
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10-24-2013, 05:27 PM
#66
Race Car
www.rothsport-racing.com
Cheers, Sonny.
Cheers, Sonny.
+4.0 The difference between even a 997.2 3.8RS and the 4.0 is significant, between the 3.6 and 4.0 it is staggering.. The 4.0 actually impresses when compared to a 997 GT2. I drove both over the same road about a week or so apart, the GT3 RS 4.0 is an amazing piece of kit.
10-24-2013, 05:52 PM
#67
no one thing as a standalone will do it's best engines are systems that have to work together,
stock 993 is one well known system that works great, 993RS or 993Cup are others. I have been very impressed by both the 9m and Rothsport upgrades to the 993 engine, some but not all of both of their engines will include ITB's
The original Singer motors were built by 9M and Geoffrey Ring of RaceTek, the later ones by Cosworth, again systemic upgrades that include ITB's but are not limited to them on both.
stock 993 is one well known system that works great, 993RS or 993Cup are others. I have been very impressed by both the 9m and Rothsport upgrades to the 993 engine, some but not all of both of their engines will include ITB's
The original Singer motors were built by 9M and Geoffrey Ring of RaceTek, the later ones by Cosworth, again systemic upgrades that include ITB's but are not limited to them on both.
10-24-2013, 06:52 PM
#69
Race Car
Thats the starting point (Actually my quote on standard butterfly's with no plennum was a little over & 6k). If you add a plenum to the top of this factor another $3k...
There are cheaper systems available Clewett does a PMO ITB system with an Electromotive ECU for $7395. Plus tuning...
Of course this will not work with a stock ecu, you need to match this up with some form of aftermarket system (Motec, Vipec, Link Etc...) factor in another $4k to $7k for this. And you also need to add dyno and tuning time somewhere between $1k and $2k.
So these $6k ITB's turn very quickly into a $11k to $16k exercise and we haven't even touched the engine.
So what will this give you?, well a nice bump but with the stock cams it is a bit of a waste. ITB's give the ability to use a narrow lobe center CAM with tons of lift, duration and overlap. However, you will also need to change to mechanical lifters.... A slippery Slope indeed
factor in another $3k in parts plus labor... We are now starting to talk real money here.
There are cheaper systems available Clewett does a PMO ITB system with an Electromotive ECU for $7395. Plus tuning...
Of course this will not work with a stock ecu, you need to match this up with some form of aftermarket system (Motec, Vipec, Link Etc...) factor in another $4k to $7k for this. And you also need to add dyno and tuning time somewhere between $1k and $2k.
So these $6k ITB's turn very quickly into a $11k to $16k exercise and we haven't even touched the engine.
So what will this give you?, well a nice bump but with the stock cams it is a bit of a waste. ITB's give the ability to use a narrow lobe center CAM with tons of lift, duration and overlap. However, you will also need to change to mechanical lifters.... A slippery Slope indeed
factor in another $3k in parts plus labor... We are now starting to talk real money here.
10-24-2013, 11:16 PM
#70
Drifting
The 9M heads/cams package is a bit over $10K, and installed in the course of a rebuild you actually recoup a few bucks from not having to rebuild your stock heads (and also being able to sell them). More expensive overall, but ultimately is more bang for the buck than 3.8 p/c's and RS cams.
10-25-2013, 09:53 AM
#71
Rennlist Member
10-25-2013, 09:53 AM
#72
Rennlist Member
Thats the starting point (Actually my quote on standard butterfly's with no plennum was a little over & 6k). If you add a plenum to the top of this factor another $3k...
There are cheaper systems available Clewett does a PMO ITB system with an Electromotive ECU for $7395. Plus tuning...
Of course this will not work with a stock ecu, you need to match this up with some form of aftermarket system (Motec, Vipec, Link Etc...) factor in another $4k to $7k for this. And you also need to add dyno and tuning time somewhere between $1k and $2k.
So these $6k ITB's turn very quickly into a $11k to $16k exercise and we haven't even touched the engine.
So what will this give you?, well a nice bump but with the stock cams it is a bit of a waste. ITB's give the ability to use a narrow lobe center CAM with tons of lift, duration and overlap. However, you will also need to change to mechanical lifters.... A slippery Slope indeed factor in another $3k in parts plus labor... We are now starting to talk real money here.
There are cheaper systems available Clewett does a PMO ITB system with an Electromotive ECU for $7395. Plus tuning...
Of course this will not work with a stock ecu, you need to match this up with some form of aftermarket system (Motec, Vipec, Link Etc...) factor in another $4k to $7k for this. And you also need to add dyno and tuning time somewhere between $1k and $2k.
So these $6k ITB's turn very quickly into a $11k to $16k exercise and we haven't even touched the engine.
So what will this give you?, well a nice bump but with the stock cams it is a bit of a waste. ITB's give the ability to use a narrow lobe center CAM with tons of lift, duration and overlap. However, you will also need to change to mechanical lifters.... A slippery Slope indeed
factor in another $3k in parts plus labor... We are now starting to talk real money here.
10-25-2013, 01:14 PM
#73
RL Technical Advisor
Thats the starting point (Actually my quote on standard butterfly's with no plennum was a little over & 6k). If you add a plenum to the top of this factor another $3k...
There are cheaper systems available Clewett does a PMO ITB system with an Electromotive ECU for $7395. Plus tuning...
Of course this will not work with a stock ecu, you need to match this up with some form of aftermarket system (Motec, Vipec, Link Etc...) factor in another $4k to $7k for this. And you also need to add dyno and tuning time somewhere between $1k and $2k.
So these $6k ITB's turn very quickly into a $11k to $16k exercise and we haven't even touched the engine.
So what will this give you?, well a nice bump but with the stock cams it is a bit of a waste. ITB's give the ability to use a narrow lobe center CAM with tons of lift, duration and overlap. However, you will also need to change to mechanical lifters.... A slippery Slope indeed factor in another $3k in parts plus labor... We are now starting to talk real money here.
There are cheaper systems available Clewett does a PMO ITB system with an Electromotive ECU for $7395. Plus tuning...
Of course this will not work with a stock ecu, you need to match this up with some form of aftermarket system (Motec, Vipec, Link Etc...) factor in another $4k to $7k for this. And you also need to add dyno and tuning time somewhere between $1k and $2k.
So these $6k ITB's turn very quickly into a $11k to $16k exercise and we haven't even touched the engine.
So what will this give you?, well a nice bump but with the stock cams it is a bit of a waste. ITB's give the ability to use a narrow lobe center CAM with tons of lift, duration and overlap. However, you will also need to change to mechanical lifters.... A slippery Slope indeed
factor in another $3k in parts plus labor... We are now starting to talk real money here.I'd also add two things:
1) Resonance-flap plenum systems make a HUGE difference in torque and IMHO, well worth the premium.
2) Engine management makes or breaks the overall success here: we use Motec for its sheer flexibility and user friendliness.
10-25-2013, 03:29 PM
#75
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Bill's got a new avatar . . .
Money and value will be held in different esteem by each of us
As someone that has done the motor(3.8RS), the trans(g50/30Cup/RSR), and weight loss(~2700#) The car is a totally different and totally satisfying animal than what it was when I bought it. The goal was to approximate a Cup car(I do 2-3k track mi a year) while staying street legal(sortof). I think that I succeeded, money was not the primary concern, the result was, I think that if resale is a primary concern go buy a Cayman S or 991S and let the car do more of the work but if you want to retain old school involvement w/ increased performance a project like this whether you start w/ a 911, 964 or 993 is very rewarding
As someone that has done the motor(3.8RS), the trans(g50/30Cup/RSR), and weight loss(~2700#) The car is a totally different and totally satisfying animal than what it was when I bought it. The goal was to approximate a Cup car(I do 2-3k track mi a year) while staying street legal(sortof). I think that I succeeded, money was not the primary concern, the result was, I think that if resale is a primary concern go buy a Cayman S or 991S and let the car do more of the work but if you want to retain old school involvement w/ increased performance a project like this whether you start w/ a 911, 964 or 993 is very rewarding
