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Sub Frame Mounts

 
Old 03-24-2013, 02:10 PM
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Martin S.
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Default Sub Frame Mounts

You can get solid, with or without the GT2 tilt from Tarrett Engineering, about $350. a kit from ERP through Steve Weiner, about $350...don't know if they are solid???? Or you can get the hardened rubber mounts from FVD, a mere $950 or so, and they are on sale!

I have the ERP coming from Steve Weiner.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:07 PM
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IXLR8
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Originally Posted by Martin S. View Post
a kit from ERP ... don't know if they are solid????

I have the ERP coming.
By ERP I take it you mean this outfit. They list them as "solid mounts".

What do they mean by "solid mounts"? PU or similar or metal?


Originally Posted by Martin S. View Post
Or you can get the hardened rubber mounts from FVD, a mere $950 or so, and they are on sale!
Anyone wanting to go the OEM route, Elephant Racing has them regularly priced for $640 & $660 for OEM & Sport hardness.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:26 PM
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Get the solid....I put them in and could not for the life of me discern any additional NVH.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:40 PM
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I bought the ERP Tilt mounts, but I am thinking I should cut the spacers down to the non-tilt height.
The car has the MO30 Monroe shocks and H&R springs. Any thoughts on this is welcomed.
I assume the non-tilt spacers have only two steps as opposed to the four steps? Any pix of the non-tilt spacers?

Thanks!!!!!
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:55 AM
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Or make your own for $200.

I made these up with stainless steel spherical washer sets above and below the aluminum mount plugs to duplicate the float the rubber had so the bolts have a pure axial draw on them with no bending moment after torquing. You can see the slight motion of the spherical washers relative to each other because of this mis-alignment.

These raise the sub-frame 10 mm relative to the chassis floor with no tilt.

Kit laid out on floor with new VW sourced 10.9 bolt



Installed in frame with spherical washer set on top of aluminum mount plug pressed into in sub-frame



Installed with top and bottom spherical washer sets showing, note the slight offset of the washers due to misalignment

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Old 03-25-2013, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Cupcar View Post
I made these up with stainless steel spherical washer sets above and below the aluminum mount plugs to duplicate the float the rubber had so the bolts have a pure axial draw on them with no bending moment after torquing.
The two washers on each end (of the pic) that look like Belleville washers?

Originally Posted by Cupcar View Post
You can see the slight motion of the spherical washers relative to each other because of this mis-alignment.
I'm not seeing that.

Originally Posted by Cupcar View Post
These raise the sub-frame 10 mm relative to the chassis floor with no tilt.
I'd need a good write-up explaining the reason for "tilt".
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by IXLR8 View Post
The two washers on each end (of the pic) that look like Belleville washers?

Belleville washers are springs, these are a set of washers with a flat face on one side of both but a convex or concave side on the other so they allow angular motion.



I'm not seeing that.

You are right, I need to take another picture, it is on the bottom more than the top and different with each corner

I'd need a good write-up explaining the reason for "tilt".

Tilt is to decrease anti-squat in the rear, more important for high powered 993 than mine.
See above responses in BOLD
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:48 AM
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Bill Verburg
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Things of beauty!!


a tilt kit changes the caster and SVIC location
w/ flat a 993 has ~93% A/S tilt the front down and the SVIC goes down commensurately lowering A/S. Why would you want more A/S? to put power down at the expense of increased understeer.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by NP993 View Post
Get the solid....I put them in and could not for the life of me discern any additional NVH.
NVH? I know it is simple, but what do it mean?
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin S. View Post
NVH? I know it is simple, but what do it mean?
NVH-engineer speak for noise, vibration, harshness
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:05 AM
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Default Come on...

...admit it, somebody else had no clue on NVH! No I suppose some of us (me) don't have the audacity to ask about SVIC and AS? I am getting schooled on this LSA suspension, and love it too.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:17 AM
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SVIC- side view instant center, determined by the angle of the planes of the rear suspension and the line from the tire contact patch. The relationship between the SVIC and the Center of Mass determines anti-squat(A/S) and anti-dive(A/D)
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Verburg View Post
SVIC- side view instant center, determined by the angle of the planes of the rear suspension and the line from the tire contact patch. The relationship between the SVIC and the Center of Mass determines anti-squat(A/S) and anti-dive(A/D)
This is good stuff, pure platinum info. Thanks Bill!!!!!

Need to re-read Carroll Smith and Fred Puhn for some more suspension detail.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Cupcar View Post
These raise the sub-frame 10 mm relative to the chassis floor with no tilt.
So did you make them simply to replace worn OEM bushings and what was the reason for the 10 mm increase?

Also, since there is no tilt, any reason for the spherical washers or was that to do it right, just in case?

Did you turn these parts yourself? I know how pricey SS can get.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Verburg View Post
a tilt kit changes the caster and SVIC location
w/ flat a 993 has ~93% A/S tilt the front down and the SVIC goes down commensurately lowering A/S. Why would you want more A/S? to put power down at the expense of increased understeer.
Originally Posted by Bill Verburg View Post
SVIC- side view instant center, determined by the angle of the planes of the rear suspension and the line from the tire contact patch. The relationship between the SVIC and the Center of Mass determines anti-squat(A/S) and anti-dive(A/D)

Bill, as always, thanks!!!

I will get the engineer who runs the shake and bake section at work to explain all this. His grad paper was on suspension design and he used to race.
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