993 Boutique business concept - looking for thoughts
02-08-2013, 09:10 AM
#61
Previous post meant 87-89 or 90-94, didn't mean to limit it.
So for example, https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...rrera-2-a.html
take that car, body work, some interior coachwork, swapped 3.6, lower the weight, otherwise a nicely custom'd more modern AC 911 with the retro look...?
One of my favorite stories of a custom 911 was one in which the owner removed the windshield wipers and side mirrors to reduce wind-noise, then removed alot of sound deadening because wind noise was way down. Now that's very specialized, but that's the type of small touches I think transform a car.
So for example, https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...rrera-2-a.html
take that car, body work, some interior coachwork, swapped 3.6, lower the weight, otherwise a nicely custom'd more modern AC 911 with the retro look...?
One of my favorite stories of a custom 911 was one in which the owner removed the windshield wipers and side mirrors to reduce wind-noise, then removed alot of sound deadening because wind noise was way down. Now that's very specialized, but that's the type of small touches I think transform a car.
02-08-2013, 11:58 AM
#62
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Cut to the dollars and sense (intentional spelling) of it. One car on the market right now we've talked about--Jochen's GT2 clone. At $200K ask, that's probably little over half of what's in it. I'll throw in my car--it was nearly six-figures, all in, to get it into the owner's hands complete. (And it had ZERO bodywork, absent painting the new wing and nose.)
So you get a ratty G50 Carrera for $15K. Used 3.6, condition unknown + conversion parts - 3.2 value is say $7K. Bodywork, wheels/tires is another $8K. Suspension and brakes are $8K. So you're into the thing $35-40K IF EVERYTHING GOES RIGHT. Labor, including painting it yourself? 100 hours is on the laughable low end. Let's call that $10K, unless someone is working for minimum wage.
Now, you've got probably a 200K car with a used engine, old transmission, and original interior. What's that worth out in the open market?
(I've costed these things out for over 25 year now, starting with the first conversion I did to "make a fortune" doing RS clones for hopefully $12-13K when a real RS was $20K. Didn't work so well since the floor for even a POS 2.4T was $5-6K. Slopenoses in the late '80s were good, though, as you had a much less discriminating buyer profile.)
So you get a ratty G50 Carrera for $15K. Used 3.6, condition unknown + conversion parts - 3.2 value is say $7K. Bodywork, wheels/tires is another $8K. Suspension and brakes are $8K. So you're into the thing $35-40K IF EVERYTHING GOES RIGHT. Labor, including painting it yourself? 100 hours is on the laughable low end. Let's call that $10K, unless someone is working for minimum wage.
Now, you've got probably a 200K car with a used engine, old transmission, and original interior. What's that worth out in the open market?
(I've costed these things out for over 25 year now, starting with the first conversion I did to "make a fortune" doing RS clones for hopefully $12-13K when a real RS was $20K. Didn't work so well since the floor for even a POS 2.4T was $5-6K. Slopenoses in the late '80s were good, though, as you had a much less discriminating buyer profile.)
02-08-2013, 12:32 PM
#63
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I thought it was already implicit, but i will add another rule to the "you must have a differentiator" -> it also needs to be PROFITABLE. As Ken is outlining, that is very very difficult. Remember, I bet that Singer is totally in the red, and Magnus is a totally different animal.
However, we can analyse this to death as well - I have also learned that often you need to get wet and just try it, at a scale that if failure comes it does not kill you, and see where it goes. That way might illuminate another option that you would have have seen without the first attempt.
Cheers,
Mike
However, we can analyse this to death as well - I have also learned that often you need to get wet and just try it, at a scale that if failure comes it does not kill you, and see where it goes. That way might illuminate another option that you would have have seen without the first attempt.
Cheers,
Mike
02-08-2013, 01:19 PM
#64
Cut to the dollars and sense (intentional spelling) of it. One car on the market right now we've talked about--Jochen's GT2 clone. At $200K ask, that's probably little over half of what's in it. I'll throw in my car--it was nearly six-figures, all in, to get it into the owner's hands complete. (And it had ZERO bodywork, absent painting the new wing and nose.)
So you get a ratty G50 Carrera for $15K. Used 3.6, condition unknown + conversion parts - 3.2 value is say $7K. Bodywork, wheels/tires is another $8K. Suspension and brakes are $8K. So you're into the thing $35-40K IF EVERYTHING GOES RIGHT. Labor, including painting it yourself? 100 hours is on the laughable low end. Let's call that $10K, unless someone is working for minimum wage.
Now, you've got probably a 200K car with a used engine, old transmission, and original interior. What's that worth out in the open market?
(I've costed these things out for over 25 year now, starting with the first conversion I did to "make a fortune" doing RS clones for hopefully $12-13K when a real RS was $20K. Didn't work so well since the floor for even a POS 2.4T was $5-6K. Slopenoses in the late '80s were good, though, as you had a much less discriminating buyer profile.)
So you get a ratty G50 Carrera for $15K. Used 3.6, condition unknown + conversion parts - 3.2 value is say $7K. Bodywork, wheels/tires is another $8K. Suspension and brakes are $8K. So you're into the thing $35-40K IF EVERYTHING GOES RIGHT. Labor, including painting it yourself? 100 hours is on the laughable low end. Let's call that $10K, unless someone is working for minimum wage.
Now, you've got probably a 200K car with a used engine, old transmission, and original interior. What's that worth out in the open market?
(I've costed these things out for over 25 year now, starting with the first conversion I did to "make a fortune" doing RS clones for hopefully $12-13K when a real RS was $20K. Didn't work so well since the floor for even a POS 2.4T was $5-6K. Slopenoses in the late '80s were good, though, as you had a much less discriminating buyer profile.)
We've got a $15k tired g50 carrera. We strip it to the bare chassis, do some seam welding in the floor pan area and maybe strengthening in a few other areas. We do some custom bodywork. Flared wheel arches, maybe some unique work with the side mirrors, whatever. Custom paint let's assume done in house.
We stick in a freshened 3.6 mated to the g50 with a new clutch and key hydraulic parts. Maybe some unique re-location of a few mechanical bits.
The interior gets a re-do: rear seat delete with a nice design, new carpeting, seats, steering wheel upholstery, removal of some sound deadening. Glued in front windshield for stiffening, lighter glass if it's easy to source.
Wheels/tires, suspension/brakes = $10k
Let's say we're into it $45k-$50k in cost + 400 hours of labor (10 weeks to make it easy). ....We either sell off the old engine and parts or use it in another project car...not sure what those would fetch net.
Thoughts on what such a car would be able to fetch reliably?
02-08-2013, 01:50 PM
#65
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Hi Joe.
Will you partner be happy putting this amount work into these projects? What if he decides he wants an easier life?
re custom work.
You will be butchering a 3.2 g50 which would be a great shame. Flared arches, terrible. Who wants a stiffened 3.2. It is what it is.
Best to restore to original spec, and try making money that way, with the pleasure of knowing you've saved a great classic car.
That goes for 993's to.
Good luck though.
Will you partner be happy putting this amount work into these projects? What if he decides he wants an easier life?
re custom work.
You will be butchering a 3.2 g50 which would be a great shame. Flared arches, terrible. Who wants a stiffened 3.2. It is what it is.
Best to restore to original spec, and try making money that way, with the pleasure of knowing you've saved a great classic car.
That goes for 993's to.
Good luck though.
02-08-2013, 01:51 PM
#66
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02-08-2013, 02:05 PM
#67
02-08-2013, 02:27 PM
#68
I thought it was already implicit, but i will add another rule to the "you must have a differentiator" -> it also needs to be PROFITABLE. As Ken is outlining, that is very very difficult. Remember, I bet that Singer is totally in the red, and Magnus is a totally different animal.
However, we can analyse this to death as well - I have also learned that often you need to get wet and just try it, at a scale that if failure comes it does not kill you, and see where it goes. That way might illuminate another option that you would have have seen without the first attempt.
Cheers,
Mike
However, we can analyse this to death as well - I have also learned that often you need to get wet and just try it, at a scale that if failure comes it does not kill you, and see where it goes. That way might illuminate another option that you would have have seen without the first attempt.
Cheers,
Mike
Agreed. I'm here mainly to get buy-in on where's there is interest. In the past few days, I've obviously moved far more towards the custom build (not to spec, but our own decisions but some options) where there would be significant interest.
It truly is a boutique though and there's a variety of ways it can run, so I'm not as worried about achieving some significant level of profitability to support a large property, personnel, etc.
02-08-2013, 02:30 PM
#69
How many truly near-death 993s are you seeing out there that actually have profitable potential to their restoration?
I may see 1-2 ~$20k 993s a year in my most common search spots....I'm assuming you guys are talking runners of course, but I could be wrong.
I haven't seen running 993s that require notable restoration and that could then be sold for sufficient profit to warrant the business.Maybe I'm wrong.
I may see 1-2 ~$20k 993s a year in my most common search spots....I'm assuming you guys are talking runners of course, but I could be wrong.
I haven't seen running 993s that require notable restoration and that could then be sold for sufficient profit to warrant the business.Maybe I'm wrong.
02-08-2013, 02:33 PM
#70
He's spent years now investing that type of time into custom choppers and BMWs. He's got the energy and talent. But the proof will be in the pudding - we've been extremely close friends for over a decade. We're honest with each other.
02-08-2013, 03:16 PM
#71
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Race911 - I'll modify your example to my line of thinking and ask for your response:
We've got a $15k tired g50 carrera. We strip it to the bare chassis, do some seam welding in the floor pan area and maybe strengthening in a few other areas. We do some custom bodywork. Flared wheel arches, maybe some unique work with the side mirrors, whatever. Custom paint let's assume done in house.
We stick in a freshened 3.6 mated to the g50 with a new clutch and key hydraulic parts. Maybe some unique re-location of a few mechanical bits.
The interior gets a re-do: rear seat delete with a nice design, new carpeting, seats, steering wheel upholstery, removal of some sound deadening. Glued in front windshield for stiffening, lighter glass if it's easy to source.
Wheels/tires, suspension/brakes = $10k
Let's say we're into it $45k-$50k in cost + 400 hours of labor (10 weeks to make it easy). ....We either sell off the old engine and parts or use it in another project car...not sure what those would fetch net.
Thoughts on what such a car would be able to fetch reliably?
We've got a $15k tired g50 carrera. We strip it to the bare chassis, do some seam welding in the floor pan area and maybe strengthening in a few other areas. We do some custom bodywork. Flared wheel arches, maybe some unique work with the side mirrors, whatever. Custom paint let's assume done in house.
We stick in a freshened 3.6 mated to the g50 with a new clutch and key hydraulic parts. Maybe some unique re-location of a few mechanical bits.
The interior gets a re-do: rear seat delete with a nice design, new carpeting, seats, steering wheel upholstery, removal of some sound deadening. Glued in front windshield for stiffening, lighter glass if it's easy to source.
Wheels/tires, suspension/brakes = $10k
Let's say we're into it $45k-$50k in cost + 400 hours of labor (10 weeks to make it easy). ....We either sell off the old engine and parts or use it in another project car...not sure what those would fetch net.
Thoughts on what such a car would be able to fetch reliably?
What you're up against is the odometer. I suppose Dickinson blows through that with his the other wordly craftsmanship + personal celebrity + press buzz to get his product out the door at those prices. But we're still talking single digit production, aren't we?
Seriously, I'm happy to delve into the complete economics of this. Not only on 911s, but what my cousin has built into a niche business (hi Mike!) servicing the worldwide needs of the '60s Porsche prototype community. I know I pimp his skills enough, but if you haven't looked at his website below (a bit out of date now), do so.
02-08-2013, 05:40 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
I think Ken is giving you first hand advice. The reality is a custom car is a personal project that the owner gets involved with emotionally and pays more to get what they want. The car you described will not make a profit and is a hard sell. What your aspiring to be is Bruce Canepa, but your skipping the road he took to get there including his racing success and earned reputation for excellence. I would love to see another Porsche shop in the area, but I also hate to see someone struggle with the complexity of the business. It seems like your banking on your partners ability to fabricate. I would suggest start with a specific parts need that is either superior or cost effective when compared to the current market. The tools you will need (Porsche specific or course) are going to eat a good bit of your budget.
02-09-2013, 03:21 PM
#73
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Selling 10 cars a month out of inventory of 15 cars is so laughable that it doesn't even merit a discussion. That could only be thought up by a person completely unfamiliar with car business. That's not even mentioning that the entire car selling industry is not conducive to normal human beings.
Joe, you might have a good and grand idea with best intentions. Use your powers for good on something else. Killing small animals while riding a unicycle backwards through downtowns of major US cities can be both more socially approved and financially lucrative than being in a used car business.
Joe, you might have a good and grand idea with best intentions. Use your powers for good on something else. Killing small animals while riding a unicycle backwards through downtowns of major US cities can be both more socially approved and financially lucrative than being in a used car business.
