993 Boutique business concept - looking for thoughts
02-06-2013, 09:55 PM
#46
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Basically echoing what most others have said but I suggest start small. If this is just a hobby for you and you do not need it for income, why start big and risk so much?
You're not dependent on this for your daily food so take it one product/step at a time. Honestly, I think there is a demand for many high quality aftermarket parts but you have to build up your brand through great service and quality as others have done on this forum. I haven't had them done yet but I am about to send my exhausts to Darin soon, he's probably a good example of that.
Once you get the ball rolling (which is the hardest part) things will just come into place. I did that with my business and less than a year after starting it I can't complain too much. Of course you should expand your market as much as possible.
You're not dependent on this for your daily food so take it one product/step at a time. Honestly, I think there is a demand for many high quality aftermarket parts but you have to build up your brand through great service and quality as others have done on this forum. I haven't had them done yet but I am about to send my exhausts to Darin soon, he's probably a good example of that.
Once you get the ball rolling (which is the hardest part) things will just come into place. I did that with my business and less than a year after starting it I can't complain too much. Of course you should expand your market as much as possible.
02-07-2013, 09:25 AM
#47
Building a brand is exactly what I want to seek, while being within an area of passion for my partner and I.
I want to help build the business end of things and don't care much about income (like I'd like to build some equity and possibly future income in it). My partner wants to customize P-cars in a beautiful way but that also produces income ($45-50k per year in the first year is his goal).
My original theory - disproven on this thread at least! - was that we could sell a low volume of cars to produce a steady income stream and get some name recognition.
Quite frankly though I think my partner, who would be the ultimate value creator here, would be happier if we simply used some bank capital to purchase 2-3 P-cars and began tackling different projects, posting the results online, seeing where the interest lies, and then moving into limited production where the interest is strongest.
As an encouraging history, my partner (who has been one of my closest friends for over 12 years) has a history in building custom motorcycles from the ground up, restoring BMW e30s, swapping bigger engines into e21s, and doing some custom work on 2002. He has gotten some really amazing support and buy-in from those communities when he posted his projects.
After watching a video on Magnus Walker and Jack Olsen and their custom work as well as focus on one car to do it all, we started talking about how we could share our passion together in the P-car world.
Anyway, that's the background. I'm sitting down with him to discuss moving into a pure custom workshop that could focus on doing things like redesigning the stock base seats upholstery and maybe side supports , a beautiful rear seat delete, etc.
I want to help build the business end of things and don't care much about income (like I'd like to build some equity and possibly future income in it). My partner wants to customize P-cars in a beautiful way but that also produces income ($45-50k per year in the first year is his goal).
My original theory - disproven on this thread at least! - was that we could sell a low volume of cars to produce a steady income stream and get some name recognition.
Quite frankly though I think my partner, who would be the ultimate value creator here, would be happier if we simply used some bank capital to purchase 2-3 P-cars and began tackling different projects, posting the results online, seeing where the interest lies, and then moving into limited production where the interest is strongest.
As an encouraging history, my partner (who has been one of my closest friends for over 12 years) has a history in building custom motorcycles from the ground up, restoring BMW e30s, swapping bigger engines into e21s, and doing some custom work on 2002. He has gotten some really amazing support and buy-in from those communities when he posted his projects.
After watching a video on Magnus Walker and Jack Olsen and their custom work as well as focus on one car to do it all, we started talking about how we could share our passion together in the P-car world.
Anyway, that's the background. I'm sitting down with him to discuss moving into a pure custom workshop that could focus on doing things like redesigning the stock base seats upholstery and maybe side supports , a beautiful rear seat delete, etc.
02-07-2013, 09:47 AM
#48
Rennlist Member
We started Carobu in the Ferrari market not only because we were passionate about the marque (which btw was greatly diminished because of the business), but because our tech had years of experience in the market and great reputation. This helped get "the ball rolling." If your partner has Beemer experience, then leverage that then slowly move into pcar market.
If you are independently wealthy and can buy a million dollars worth of 993s, go for it. If you buy them right, you may make money over time. But remember your intentions when a year or two down the road you start feeling resentful to the fact that your partner is not contributing equally.
If you are independently wealthy and can buy a million dollars worth of 993s, go for it. If you buy them right, you may make money over time. But remember your intentions when a year or two down the road you start feeling resentful to the fact that your partner is not contributing equally.
02-07-2013, 09:51 AM
#49
Or a less expensive Singer type thing. The interest in those cars is massive but the price tag is way out of 99% of Porsche enthusiasts' budgets.
IDK, just my initial reaction.
I do have a question on that note: This is out of my area of expertise, but I notice chassis stiffening is an area of interest. Does anyone know of a 993 owner or shop that has done extensive seam welding or stiffening of the chassis (i.e. gluing the windshield in, adding some braces) but actually used the stiffening as a way to REMOVE weight on the car by better welding the bare chassis but then removing some of the factory stiffening plates and such?
Just wondering if it would be possible to seam weld and do other low-weight-impact steps, then cut some of the factory chassis weight, and keep the car with factory-style bushings to keep the comfort level high afterwards while now making it lighter and stiffer.
02-07-2013, 09:57 AM
#50
We started Carobu in the Ferrari market not only because we were passionate about the marque (which btw was greatly diminished because of the business), but because our tech had years of experience in the market and great reputation. This helped get "the ball rolling." If your partner has Beemer experience, then leverage that then slowly move into pcar market.
If you are independently wealthy and can buy a million dollars worth of 993s, go for it. If you buy them right, you may make money over time. But remember your intentions when a year or two down the road you start feeling resentful to the fact that your partner is not contributing equally.
If you are independently wealthy and can buy a million dollars worth of 993s, go for it. If you buy them right, you may make money over time. But remember your intentions when a year or two down the road you start feeling resentful to the fact that your partner is not contributing equally.
To your point, my idea of success here is to develop products or services that are seen as valuable to the community. If that happens, i'll be happy with the outcome.
02-07-2013, 10:01 AM
#51
Race Director
This would be an interesting path but the interest in Singer, as far as I can tell, is due to their incredible craftsmanship and thoroughness. I'm not sure how you do that without the price tag. Singer is a complete car (as far as I know) - if you want a substantially lower price tag, wouldn't you need to reduce the amount of coachwork?
IDK, just my initial reaction.
I do have a question on that note: This is out of my area of expertise, but I notice chassis stiffening is an area of interest. Does anyone know of a 993 owner or shop that has done extensive seam welding or stiffening of the chassis (i.e. gluing the windshield in, adding some braces) but actually used the stiffening as a way to REMOVE weight on the car by better welding the bare chassis but then removing some of the factory stiffening plates and such?
Just wondering if it would be possible to seam weld and do other low-weight-impact steps, then cut some of the factory chassis weight, and keep the car with factory-style bushings to keep the comfort level high afterwards while now making it lighter and stiffer.
IDK, just my initial reaction.
I do have a question on that note: This is out of my area of expertise, but I notice chassis stiffening is an area of interest. Does anyone know of a 993 owner or shop that has done extensive seam welding or stiffening of the chassis (i.e. gluing the windshield in, adding some braces) but actually used the stiffening as a way to REMOVE weight on the car by better welding the bare chassis but then removing some of the factory stiffening plates and such?
Just wondering if it would be possible to seam weld and do other low-weight-impact steps, then cut some of the factory chassis weight, and keep the car with factory-style bushings to keep the comfort level high afterwards while now making it lighter and stiffer.
That said, you would need bare 993 chassis. There are maybe a dozen of those in the country at any given time. Maybe 2 out of those dozen want this done. Not sustainable.
02-07-2013, 10:43 AM
#52
I believe the RS cars are seam welded. Whether they remove the stiffening panels, I don't know but I doubt it.
That said, you would need bare 993 chassis. There are maybe a dozen of those in the country at any given time. Maybe 2 out of those dozen want this done. Not sustainable.
That said, you would need bare 993 chassis. There are maybe a dozen of those in the country at any given time. Maybe 2 out of those dozen want this done. Not sustainable.
02-07-2013, 11:39 AM
#53
Race Director
I think the suggestion was this:
Take G50 3.2s or 964s, backdate the body panels, maybe graft on some flairs, build a nice 3.6 varioram/G50 gearbox, do some suspension, a nice clean interior, and sell the car for about $100k. Id say that would get you about 85% of the experience of the singer at 1/3 or less of teh price.
Basically a baby singer without all the custom stuff (like $30k wiring harnesses) that bring the price out of the reach of the majority of the enthusiast buyers.
Take G50 3.2s or 964s, backdate the body panels, maybe graft on some flairs, build a nice 3.6 varioram/G50 gearbox, do some suspension, a nice clean interior, and sell the car for about $100k. Id say that would get you about 85% of the experience of the singer at 1/3 or less of teh price.
Basically a baby singer without all the custom stuff (like $30k wiring harnesses) that bring the price out of the reach of the majority of the enthusiast buyers.
02-07-2013, 12:57 PM
#54
How about restoring "near death" 993s back to original as-new condition? The last thing a currently existing decent 993 needs is another middle man. There are, however, plenty of beat up 993s out there that need rescuing.
02-07-2013, 01:12 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
The 993 is like the Acura NSX (sold in limited numbers in North America) yet one guy in the U.S. has taken this same approach and started saving NSX's as a hobby. He's now been able to open a shop, restore damaged cars, and make a decent living. He's a one man show so he's limited by time however, he's had requests for custom stuff...it all starts somewhere.
02-07-2013, 01:29 PM
#56
Banned
Exactly! If you want to attract a purist then no better way than showing them pictures of how you saved a 993 from its demise.
The 993 is like the Acura NSX (sold in limited numbers in North America) yet one guy in the U.S. has taken this same approach and started saving NSX's as a hobby. He's now been able to open a shop, restore damaged cars, and make a decent living. He's a one man show so he's limited by time however, he's had requests for custom stuff...it all starts somewhere.
The 993 is like the Acura NSX (sold in limited numbers in North America) yet one guy in the U.S. has taken this same approach and started saving NSX's as a hobby. He's now been able to open a shop, restore damaged cars, and make a decent living. He's a one man show so he's limited by time however, he's had requests for custom stuff...it all starts somewhere.
02-07-2013, 01:39 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
There are plenty of shops who offer highest end mechanical and body. Just maybe not under the same roof as someone like Colin and his operation. But does that matter? Right here in the Bay Area we have one of the highest end mechanical outfits in the world (JWE), and offhand I know at least three long time Porsche owning body shop operators. Concours and racing. Everyone's known to each other, and works together.
Similarly, how about the Porsche specialty community in the Portland area. Yellow car went to Steve 10 years ago via North Carolina, and was delivered to its owner in Monterey. If a GT2 body was requested, no doubt it would have been done up there, too.
02-07-2013, 03:07 PM
#58
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Good discussion and its somewhat aligned with some of my thoughts - I have been thinking of how I could take this 993 passion of mine into something that allows me to provide value to a community and results with some income- its good that my needs are not that large so smaller scale endeavours are possible.
Alignment of a passion and making it into a money making venture is tricky, tricky, tricky. Many have gone down that road and quickly realized that running a business is not the same as play with a passion, unless your passion is also the business itself.
The Singer model still needs to be proved - since we do not see his financials I bet he is still in the red since they do sell that many units, and I think it in a video they mentioned trying to sell some enhancements to the larget market to have a solid, less lumpy revenue stream.
I also looked at the full sized shop model - way too much overhead and challenges that would quickly squash any passion I have around the brand. Here in Vancouver, we are of the most expensive places to live in North America, and commercial shop space is like gold - and you need that gold-level income to sustain it. Not sure about your area, but as Ken has talked about before, its very challenging job to have a commercial shop in play and be profitable.
I looked at the dealer/reseller model, but its the same challenges and pain -> having relatives in the business over the years, I knew that was not for me. Also being in Canada and the big market is in the US, it just will not work.
Custom parts or NLA part manufacturing is an option - low volume potential so it tailors more towards a less full-blow enterprise. I am looking at this one, and have some ideas. Most common parts are already being done for quite a while.
As was said before, you need a differentiator - what makes your offer/product/service special that no one can duplicate (easily)? What is your secret sauce?
Examples would be:
- Singer is the top-level premium "customized" cars that are essentially new and unique
- FD would be excellent service and proprietary mufflers and products (like the Golden Rod)
- Pelican Parts - one-stop wide range of Porsche/BMW parts with reasonable prices supported with a web forum more focused on earlier 911's and engine rebuilding
- Sunset Porsche - bottom prices for Porsche parts
It would be interesting to see if you can make this fly, but if you have an immediate need for income for both of you, and service operational costs and debt, you had better make sure you provide enough runway in your plan to make this start to take-off. Best of luck, it will be really fun to see what you launch and how it goes!
Cheers,
Mike
Alignment of a passion and making it into a money making venture is tricky, tricky, tricky. Many have gone down that road and quickly realized that running a business is not the same as play with a passion, unless your passion is also the business itself.
The Singer model still needs to be proved - since we do not see his financials I bet he is still in the red since they do sell that many units, and I think it in a video they mentioned trying to sell some enhancements to the larget market to have a solid, less lumpy revenue stream.
I also looked at the full sized shop model - way too much overhead and challenges that would quickly squash any passion I have around the brand. Here in Vancouver, we are of the most expensive places to live in North America, and commercial shop space is like gold - and you need that gold-level income to sustain it. Not sure about your area, but as Ken has talked about before, its very challenging job to have a commercial shop in play and be profitable.
I looked at the dealer/reseller model, but its the same challenges and pain -> having relatives in the business over the years, I knew that was not for me. Also being in Canada and the big market is in the US, it just will not work.
Custom parts or NLA part manufacturing is an option - low volume potential so it tailors more towards a less full-blow enterprise. I am looking at this one, and have some ideas. Most common parts are already being done for quite a while.
As was said before, you need a differentiator - what makes your offer/product/service special that no one can duplicate (easily)? What is your secret sauce?
Examples would be:
- Singer is the top-level premium "customized" cars that are essentially new and unique
- FD would be excellent service and proprietary mufflers and products (like the Golden Rod)
- Pelican Parts - one-stop wide range of Porsche/BMW parts with reasonable prices supported with a web forum more focused on earlier 911's and engine rebuilding
- Sunset Porsche - bottom prices for Porsche parts
It would be interesting to see if you can make this fly, but if you have an immediate need for income for both of you, and service operational costs and debt, you had better make sure you provide enough runway in your plan to make this start to take-off. Best of luck, it will be really fun to see what you launch and how it goes!
Cheers,
Mike
02-07-2013, 08:56 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
I think the suggestion was this:
Take G50 3.2s or 964s, backdate the body panels, maybe graft on some flairs, build a nice 3.6 varioram/G50 gearbox, do some suspension, a nice clean interior, and sell the car for about $100k. Id say that would get you about 85% of the experience of the singer at 1/3 or less of teh price.
Basically a baby singer without all the custom stuff (like $30k wiring harnesses) that bring the price out of the reach of the majority of the enthusiast buyers.
Take G50 3.2s or 964s, backdate the body panels, maybe graft on some flairs, build a nice 3.6 varioram/G50 gearbox, do some suspension, a nice clean interior, and sell the car for about $100k. Id say that would get you about 85% of the experience of the singer at 1/3 or less of teh price.
Basically a baby singer without all the custom stuff (like $30k wiring harnesses) that bring the price out of the reach of the majority of the enthusiast buyers.
02-08-2013, 09:02 AM
#60
Hmmm, let me make sure I understand correctly....
Swap a varioram 3.6 into a 87-89 and keep the g50 trans. Backdate the body styling or go with retro flair styling, especially with voluptuous flaring hips, appropriate sized wheels and tires (I'm not a "bigger is better" guy), and for the love of God keep the weight down....
And otherwise keep the heat and a/c and offer that up?
I'm double checking on this because that's well within my partner's wheelhouse. He's got a real talent at hand-blending body panel grafts into smooth lines. And it would be nice to offer it to this stage and then offer additional steps if the car is goign to be a track rat, etc.
Swap a varioram 3.6 into a 87-89 and keep the g50 trans. Backdate the body styling or go with retro flair styling, especially with voluptuous flaring hips, appropriate sized wheels and tires (I'm not a "bigger is better" guy), and for the love of God keep the weight down....
And otherwise keep the heat and a/c and offer that up?
I'm double checking on this because that's well within my partner's wheelhouse. He's got a real talent at hand-blending body panel grafts into smooth lines. And it would be nice to offer it to this stage and then offer additional steps if the car is goign to be a track rat, etc.