Mike J

first leak looks like cam carrier to head - typical. Requires quite a bit of work to solve, good thing is you do not need to remove the heads, bad thing is its remove almost everything to the heads. There is no gasket there, its a liquid sealer, and it looks like it's failing.

You are right, heavy corrosion on the return tubes - see if you can clean them up with emery paper and even put a heat resistant paint on them. If you want to replace them so they are shiny new again, you can do it if you are fixing issue #1 (BTW, you do not have to remove the heads to replace them, just the cam carriers), or just cut them out and replace them with the two part units - they will work fine.

Third picture is a bit weird - why is the oil residue green? Did you try to put a solvent on it?

Nothing looks critical and need attention in order to drive the car.

cheers,

Mike

bobt993

I have used the two piece oil return tubes on a race motor and had zero issues. Be careful while installing them. Drain the oil out of the case and the tubes take about 90mins to replace taking your time. The ones in the pictures are pretty rusty. Definitely agree with Mike about the cam tower leak.

Ed Hughes

I'd argue with you Mike, on the cam tower vs head removal. If I'm going to remove cam towers to reseal, I'm pulling the heads and getting them rebuilt, which is why I suggested head removal, if one wants to go that far on a used motor. Popping the heads off after cam towers are off is a walk in the park.

After I rebuilt my 3.2, I had a piddly drip over 3. The only way I could justify to myself taking the time to tear that far down again, was to pop the heads off and slap some Mahle high compression 3.4L p's and c's.

Mike J

Yeah, but i was focused on just getting the oil leak fixed. I can tear down to the heads and put it all back together quite quickly, but once I break that head/cylinder seal, it's another can of worms - now its valve guides, possible head resurfacing and machining work, O ring base seals, oil return seal.... then I start to look at the rings -> but if I keep it just to fix the oil leak, and perhaps do some minor maintenance like replace the lifters, its much quicker and cheaper. Just trying to keep it to fixing the OP problems...

Cheers,

Mike

bobt993

Mike,

Why not suggest a leak down prior to any work so at least you know where it may lead....... It's funny how the projects grow and grow...

Ed Hughes

But that's the point-he's asking if he needs a topend, which obviously he doesn't for a leak. But that leads me to assume he's got more than a few miles on this car, if he had such a concern, and it would be silly to not at least do the heads if tearing down that far, only IMO. But, then again, I found a way to drop $18K into my 3.2, using my labor.

bobt993

^^^^ Ed, I have my 3.8 apart to make some changes right now so if I am not focused this could wander in a painful direction. I did not like the variety of torque on the cam tower bolts I removed so now the case is split and I am checking everything including the balance on the crank etc.

Back to the OP. I would check as much as possible if your going to pull the engine and take it down to a short block. Not much more time to get it further, but as Mike indicates the costs on re-assembly go up quickly once you get any deeper.

Paul902

I think I know less than you assume...So, are you guys referring to the cylinders as the heads, and what I thought was the head as the cam tower? I did think that where the oil is leaking from might be a sign for a top end. my bad. The car has 140k km on it, btw.

From looking at all the inputs it seems that I should:
a) check for the VRAM flap leak that Keith linked to.
b) clean up or replace the oil return tubes, but no urgency to do so. One piece if I do the cam tower work, two piece if I do not.
c) either live with the cam tower leak, or have the engine dropped out and do a leakdown, and depending on the results just remove the cam tower for resealing, or do a top end.

Another thought was to check the torque of the cam tower bolts.

Sound about right?

Thanks IXLR8 for posting my pics!

NP993

I am not sure what the fuss is all about on this thread. That cam housing leak is totally insignificant. It might be the cutest, most adorable little cam housing leak I've ever seen.

The upper leak is probably from the varioram actuator seal on the underside of the intake manifold -- a $10 part and an hour or two of labor.

Quadcammer

Paul, these motors have far more parts than a traditional block'ed motor.

heres the story:

The crankcase is two pieces and holds only the crank, intermediate shaft, and oil pump. The cylinders are separate pieces (with all the fins) that slide into the crank case. The heads then go on top. But unlike other cars, the heads contain only the valves and springs, not the cams. On top of the heads is the cam tower into which you stuff the cams, rockers, lifters, etc.. Then the valve covers go over the whole mess.

so to pull the towers, you'd still need to mess with the valve timing, but you wouldn't have to pull the heads off.

As NP said, I'd leave it be, but monitor for it getting worse. My car has a few little weeps, including one from the cylinder to case, but I'm not about to tear it apart over that.


this is a good link for pics

http://www.pcarworkshop.com/index.ph...cylinders_back

Mike J

No fuss intended and I note that there is no reason to fix any of it - we are just spending some time explaining what we think the source of the leak is, and how to get at it ... you are right I would not go to all that trouble for that sized leak, even if my labor is free...

Garth S

Hi Paul,
That leak appears to be from an unpressurized source vs an oil gallery - at least, that's my assumption: a nick to one's little finger is a long way from the heart, so the patient is at very low risk from the aggravation. I would treat that leak in the same vein ( pardon the pun), and basically ignore it. The best synthetic at $10/l will cover a lot of drips vs the teardown costs ....average drop = 0.05ml = 20K drops/l ). So, what's the drop rate per day ?

Just for amusement, here's the shade tree approach I had taken for a somewhat analogous transmission leak ...

Paul902

Quadcammer...thanks! That was exactly the tutorial I needed to understand what y'all are saying.

NP993...stress-relieving, thank you.

GarthS...your transmission patch still holding? I would say I get a few drops on the floor every time I park, and there was a heavy grime behind the rear bumper. Agreed that at this point it is most cost effective to ignore, assuming it is not going to massively self destruct at some point.


Is the cam tower bolt retorque a good idea? I notice Bob said his had a variation from one to another. I was suprised to see these are only 23 Nm. My VW head bolts were, like, 200Nm. I was suprised the cam tower torque was not in this range. Can anyone explain that to me? Is it that the heads have separate bolts that are tighter, so the cam tower doesn't need it?

MarkD

Bingo!

You understand more than you think you understand sir

IXLR8

The cam towers are just a casting that hold the cams, rocker shafts/rockers and valve covers...no pressures involved. Whereas a cylinder head is another matter.

Paul, have a look at this thread and go through all the pages. It shows some very good shots of an engine being taken apart.


Nuts.