goofballdeluxe

Yes, tell me more about how quickly your car will become airborne without the rear spoiler

I was born at night, but not last night

solomonschris

I don't that any of us would want to probe the top speed of these cars with no rear spoiler.

goofballdeluxe

True. I'm just wondering how often our friend who is afraid of "quickly becoming airborne" is probing top speed? The reality is, the spoiler is only needed at speeds that most drivers probably visit very infrequently, if ever. By the way, the N/A cars also have a spoiler, which retracts at lower speeds.

It must be "Fast and Furious Replay Week" on his local TV station this week

solomonschris

I doubt many of us ever get the chance to get very far into triple digits, and then, not for very long. When driving my tt to Las Vegas I got up around 140 or so and, had I some coal at the time I could have made some diamonds with my rectal muscle (you would have to have read early superman to appreciate). Pretty stupid anyway, 66 yr. old guy driving a car I had only owned for 3 days. The spoilers are needed on these cars, I'm just not sure at what speeds they become necessary.

race911

Uh, how fast has anyone driven any 911 in basic "as Butzi penned it" form? For me, probably low 140s with the '73S way back when. (Yes, the car was lowered.) As long as the road's fine, the car's fine. Problem in the US is that you don't know the road will be fine, unless you're premeditating your top speed run and doing some recon. On track cornering, was always funny to run that car up with the monster wing cars through the relatively high speed turns out here and not lose an inch of ground........

goofballdeluxe

So I guess that one doesn't need to worry about one's car "quickly getting airborne without a spoiler" unless one is going well over 130mph.

In other words, for almost all drivers in almost all situations, that means almost never.

solomonschris

In order to create downforce you also create drag. On tracks that have top speeds for these cars of 140 why do they all have big rear wings? Is it just the fashion?

goofballdeluxe

Nope, at high speeds, say over 140mph, they come into play. But in average daily driving, they don't. So the idea of them being imperative so as to prevent the car from "quickly becoming airborne" would not make any sense, unless one is exploring the highest limits of these cars, which most drivers seldom, if ever, do.

No HTwo O

What I'm saying is, it's really an FAA thing.

You guys have completely missed my humor, and took it another direction. But, still very entertaining.

911Dave

None of the factory spoilers create positive downforce. What they do is "spoil" the airflow over the back window area, which reduces the lift caused by the airfoil shape of the car.

I've had my '86 carrera at nearly 140 with no spoilers of any kind (front or rear) in track events and never noticed any problem in handling. Obviously, that was on straights, not curves though. In a 993, I'd bet you would need to be at or near top speed before you see any real benefit to a spoiler.

solomonschris

Let me rephrase my question. Why, on tracks where the top speed is 140mph or less for a Porsche 911, do they all sport large rear wings. These wings cause drag and the add weight so these racers must see some benefit. Whether they give downforce or eliminate lift is a distinction without a difference in this case.

Magdaddy

I think you kinda answered your own question Chris. Regarding the huge wings on many track 911's, your coal reference is spot on my feelings...in a good way I mean. Prior to my C4S, I always thought any 911 without a rear spoiler-whaletail, ducktail, etc...was naked. I'm still not so sure that someday something stubby might not appear on the back of mine, if our friend on Project Battlefield ever gets going again that is.

race911

Uh, cornering?

Seat-of-pants from my earliest 911 "development" we ran the 1 mile U-Haul test track in Phoenix. Made it into a funky 1.25 mile road course. But we had those banked turns. Now we certainly didn't have much traction from XWX, CN36, and the like, but I was the only guy who could come out of our slow horseshoe turn (~30mph), and run flat out until the chicane on the back straight (~115mph). The other fast guys had modded 2.2 and 2.4 Es and Ss (one an SCCA National autocross competitor), so I was even quicker with my 2.7RS engine. And I was probably 150-200lbs. lighter. Yet at 80 when they had to feather it, I could go flat. So that started with the "hmm" factor with my replica 930 wing/IROC RSR nose.

But ultimately you just have to drive the car and take what it gives you.

As far as aero drag, I have to defer to the POC guys of yesteryear. Namely Bill Follmer. He and his partner were running SCs on the lap record in their time trial series circa late '80s. And in their testing they found an appreciable difference in running 205 tires up front v. 225s for Willow Springs. (Standard aero of the day in an IROC RSR nose + 3.2 Carrera wing.) Willow has a long-*** front straight, and even though getting out of T9 is critical, they found there was benefit in having less drag from a narrower tire.

solomonschris

Uh cornering?

Are you saying Ken, that the wing improves cornering? Wouldn't this be because it improves rear traction via either downforce or a reduction in lift?

No HTwo O made a pretty witty comment that got us off on this track. I agree with Goofballdeluxe in that I don't think that the OE rear spoiler does much, if anything, at double digit speeds. I do suspect that one yields real benefit short of 140mph.

I do take issue with 911Dave's statement that a 993 would have to be at or near top speed to. I think Paul Frere's 911 Story had some downforce figures for different speeds. I will get it back from my friend who I am trying to infect with the 911 mania we are all so familiar with.

And while it is true that at the speeds we drive on the streets the spoiler doesn't come into play, the same could be said of the brakes and handling. We loves these cars for their astounding capabilities, even if we can't probe those limits.

RocketJohn

I saw two at the dealer today:
This an S for $80K


This was a base for a bit over $60K