turn key, won't start (sometimes)
06-21-2012, 11:28 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
turn key, won't start (sometimes)
The title is the short version; here's the long(er):
Get in, turn key (after pushing immobilizer button either to unlock or to start if in garage unlocked). Most of the time, including twice this morning, starts right up no problemo. Sometimes, including last night, when I turn the key starter does not engage -- no cranking of engine -- but (BUT) I can hear something from what sounds like the starter. It is not what I normally would expect to hear from a faulty starter, which is a click, click, click. Frankly, it sounds like the starter is building up power or something. Release key, sound (of course) goes away. Turn key again and, 9 times out of 10, it starts right up. Last night I had to repeat three or four times before it cranked over and went ba-room (since it has a modified muffler and 100 cell cat, it actually does make a loud ba-room, not just a heathy brum,brum).
Sounds like the starter solenoid to me, but I'm not completely sure. Since the car has 91k on it, could easily be time for a new starter, regardless of whether a solenoid could be replaced by itself (which I don't know if it can).
Of course, as they things have to go, I'm driving up to Tahoe this afternoon in the car. There does thankfully appear to be decent independent shop in Incline Village, where I'll be. So, I guess the second question is: how long before this thing doesn't start after the second, third or fourth try? Safe for a weekend's use? I could always park on a hill and jump start it, like I used to with my Triumph GT6+....
Get in, turn key (after pushing immobilizer button either to unlock or to start if in garage unlocked). Most of the time, including twice this morning, starts right up no problemo. Sometimes, including last night, when I turn the key starter does not engage -- no cranking of engine -- but (BUT) I can hear something from what sounds like the starter. It is not what I normally would expect to hear from a faulty starter, which is a click, click, click. Frankly, it sounds like the starter is building up power or something. Release key, sound (of course) goes away. Turn key again and, 9 times out of 10, it starts right up. Last night I had to repeat three or four times before it cranked over and went ba-room (since it has a modified muffler and 100 cell cat, it actually does make a loud ba-room, not just a heathy brum,brum).
Sounds like the starter solenoid to me, but I'm not completely sure. Since the car has 91k on it, could easily be time for a new starter, regardless of whether a solenoid could be replaced by itself (which I don't know if it can).
Of course, as they things have to go, I'm driving up to Tahoe this afternoon in the car. There does thankfully appear to be decent independent shop in Incline Village, where I'll be. So, I guess the second question is: how long before this thing doesn't start after the second, third or fourth try? Safe for a weekend's use? I could always park on a hill and jump start it, like I used to with my Triumph GT6+....
06-21-2012, 12:14 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Ink,
Do a search on the this. One of the Rennlisters did an EXCELLENT troubleshooting synopsis that was step by step on this exact issue. I'll try and find it - it was very well written.
Last fall for me same exact issue. It was the clutch pedal interlock micro-switch that was faulty. That would be my guess for you.
Do a search on the this. One of the Rennlisters did an EXCELLENT troubleshooting synopsis that was step by step on this exact issue. I'll try and find it - it was very well written.
Last fall for me same exact issue. It was the clutch pedal interlock micro-switch that was faulty. That would be my guess for you.
06-21-2012, 12:49 PM
#3
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
my starter did that for several months, but it never got to the 3-4 try part. if you are going to do it yourself, the starter is really fun to replace.....
06-21-2012, 01:10 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Mike, I did a search earlier -- do you recall who did the write-up? Any details that would help in my search?
Also, did yours make noise while not starting? I would assume -- but don't know -- that the clutch switch cuts all power out to starter, which would mean no noise....
Bob, several months would be good. In fact, all I'm looking for right now is surviving the weekend.
Also, did yours make noise while not starting? I would assume -- but don't know -- that the clutch switch cuts all power out to starter, which would mean no noise....
Bob, several months would be good. In fact, all I'm looking for right now is surviving the weekend.
06-21-2012, 02:57 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
It took me a while to find it - brilliant and logical by e9stibi in Houston
I had starter issues and finally diagnosed it correctly: in my case it was the starter but I could rule out a lot by just making proper measurements:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...oot-cause.html
Just for the benefit of the great forum I want to add some details to the trouble shooting:
0. Swap DME relay with the spare I had in the glove box. Car did not give a single sound while starting -> rule out DME relay issue at the moment
1. Battery voltage 12.8 V and I switched it with the one from my second (starting) 993. Still no cranking or klicking from the solenoid -> battery ok
2. All connection at battery tight and mass band in trunk "looks like new" -> ruled out issues here at the moment
3. Switched Starter relay (R61) with a similar relay that knowingly works (e.g. horn that is easy to test). car still "dead while starting -> starter relay R61 ok
4. Pull starter relay R 61 and do the following measurements:
4.a Check pin 86 for 12V. This is the 12V from the immobilizer to the starter relay coil that acts as an interlock to start the car. In my case I got the 12 V when I opened the car properly and turned the ignition on within the required time. -> immobilizer ruled out as an issue
4.b. Check pin 85 for proper mass signal (resistance measurement against mass). MJ 97 and later have a clutch switch that provides the mass to the starter coil switch. I measured "0 Ohm" with depressed clutch -> ruled out clutch switch
The previous measurements confirmed that the starter relay coil gets the proper supply. No to the power side of R61
4.c. Check pin 30 for 12V with the ignition switch turned to position 3 (start position to crank). I measured 12 V. -> ruled out ignition switch issue
The previous measurement confirmed that the power side of the R61 gets the proper signal too (12V). This all ruled out any relay related issues "in the trunk". I than moved to the starter and its connections as I assumed that an issue with the cable that provides the switched 12 V from starter relay power side to the starter solenoid is not likely.
5. Checked starter for tight and clean connections. Need to include the mass connection at the chassis side -> everthing was thight and clean like new -> IT MUST BE THE STARTER
6. Replaced starter -> car starts as it is suppsed to start!
Bottomline is as Steve already said: Root causes can be multiple and proper and "cheap" diagnosis before replacing expensive parts like Immobilizer unit can safe both time and money.
Here is the list of potential issues again that can lead to a car not starting "from the electrical side" and I am sure there is more when you include general "cable issues" between working components.
1. DME relay
2. Battery
3. Battery connections
4. Starter Relay R61
5. Immobilizer Unit / maybe key fob if you are lucky
6. Clutch switch (for MJ 97 and 98)
7. Ignition switch
8. Connections to starter
9. starter itself
I had starter issues and finally diagnosed it correctly: in my case it was the starter but I could rule out a lot by just making proper measurements:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...oot-cause.html
Just for the benefit of the great forum I want to add some details to the trouble shooting:
0. Swap DME relay with the spare I had in the glove box. Car did not give a single sound while starting -> rule out DME relay issue at the moment
1. Battery voltage 12.8 V and I switched it with the one from my second (starting) 993. Still no cranking or klicking from the solenoid -> battery ok
2. All connection at battery tight and mass band in trunk "looks like new" -> ruled out issues here at the moment
3. Switched Starter relay (R61) with a similar relay that knowingly works (e.g. horn that is easy to test). car still "dead while starting -> starter relay R61 ok
4. Pull starter relay R 61 and do the following measurements:
4.a Check pin 86 for 12V. This is the 12V from the immobilizer to the starter relay coil that acts as an interlock to start the car. In my case I got the 12 V when I opened the car properly and turned the ignition on within the required time. -> immobilizer ruled out as an issue
4.b. Check pin 85 for proper mass signal (resistance measurement against mass). MJ 97 and later have a clutch switch that provides the mass to the starter coil switch. I measured "0 Ohm" with depressed clutch -> ruled out clutch switch
The previous measurements confirmed that the starter relay coil gets the proper supply. No to the power side of R61
4.c. Check pin 30 for 12V with the ignition switch turned to position 3 (start position to crank). I measured 12 V. -> ruled out ignition switch issue
The previous measurement confirmed that the power side of the R61 gets the proper signal too (12V). This all ruled out any relay related issues "in the trunk". I than moved to the starter and its connections as I assumed that an issue with the cable that provides the switched 12 V from starter relay power side to the starter solenoid is not likely.
5. Checked starter for tight and clean connections. Need to include the mass connection at the chassis side -> everthing was thight and clean like new -> IT MUST BE THE STARTER
6. Replaced starter -> car starts as it is suppsed to start!
Bottomline is as Steve already said: Root causes can be multiple and proper and "cheap" diagnosis before replacing expensive parts like Immobilizer unit can safe both time and money.
Here is the list of potential issues again that can lead to a car not starting "from the electrical side" and I am sure there is more when you include general "cable issues" between working components.
1. DME relay
2. Battery
3. Battery connections
4. Starter Relay R61
5. Immobilizer Unit / maybe key fob if you are lucky
6. Clutch switch (for MJ 97 and 98)
7. Ignition switch
8. Connections to starter
9. starter itself
06-21-2012, 03:02 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Ink,
This above is a cut and paste of his write-up. He mentions the clutch switch and MY's '97 and '98 - which makes me think you may not have this safety switch? Of course you would know this.... sorry if I got you on the wrong path.
This above is a cut and paste of his write-up. He mentions the clutch switch and MY's '97 and '98 - which makes me think you may not have this safety switch? Of course you would know this.... sorry if I got you on the wrong path.
06-21-2012, 09:22 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Made it to Tahoe. No clutch switch, since it starts fine when in neutral with clutch pedal no depressed. Uneventful trip other than the speeding ticket right outside of Truckee. CHPer was nice enough to write me up only for 75....
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06-21-2012, 11:07 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Before my son started AAU basketball, I didn't drive enough outside the City to get one, but since this is my second trip up here in as many months that may have changed. I invited the ticket anyway, since I wasn't paying enough attention -- his laser clocked me at 89 and I usually only go 9 over the limit, knowing they won't ticket that speed. Regardless, I was having fun and, yes, the car likes to fly....
