DocTock993

My poor loved but under driven garage queen had the Red Top Optima battery die on it - again (yes, it's on a CTEK 7000 trickle charger correctly set to gel-type mode).

When the AAA guy came for a jumpstart he "tested the alternator" with a portable computer type gizmo. In addition to showing that the battery needed to be replaced (duh) he said "your alternator is showing low values and may need to be replaced."

Here is the data from the print-out strip I was handed:

Battery Results
---------------
Voltage: 11.49V
Measured: 59 CCA
Rated: 720 CCA
Temp: 59degrees

Starter Test
Replace Battery
Voltage: 9.34V
Amps: 0.0A
Time: 1.63 S

Charging System Test
Excessive Ripple
No Load: 13.71V
Loaded: 12.16V


As I'm uneducated when it comes to electrical systems - can anyone comment?
Will the alternator data values change/ improve when I replace the battery, or is this a sign of an alternator problem and possibly the reason (other than not driving) for this to be the 3rd Red Top I'll be replacing in 5 years?

IXLR8

That charger does not have a GEL mode. The FLA mode is close, but if you are anywhere where it is hot, you are overcharging the battery.

I thought Optima batteries are AGM. If that is the case, you should have been on the 14.4 or 14.7 V mode depending on temperature.


You probably have one or more bad diodes in the alternator.

It could be that your battery is so far gone that it isn't acting like a good capacitor, in which case, you could get ripple. But your voltage numbers are so low, I doubt the battery is the problem.

With those numbers, little wonder your batteries have failed. First of all, AGM batteries do not like ripple voltage. Next, that charge voltage is far too low.

All this could have been avoided if you had a voltmeter installed.



Three Optima batteries in 5 years. OK, not really the fault of the battery, but I have read enough reports of less than satisfactory results from specialty batteries. I prefer good old fashioned flooded lead acid batteries for many reasons.

IXLR8

Russ,

Texas gets quite hot most of the year. Note that every 8C rise in temperature above 25C cuts battery life in half...a general rule.

At the temperatures you get, chances are your battery is being overcharged (based on a functioning alternator). AGM and GEL (VRLA) batteries should not be overcharged (allowed to gas) since they cannot be replenished.

OptimaJim

Hi Russ,

I'm sorry to hear about the problems you've been having and I'd like to help. Anytime a battery is tested when not fully-charged, test results will likely suggest the battery needs replacing. That may not necessarily be the case. If your battery measured 11.49 volts, it was more than 80% discharged. Your CTEK 7000 should have no problem maintaining your battery. Alex is correct- our batteries are AGM batteries, not “gel” batteries and should never be charged on “gel” settings, as they may not fully-charge the battery.

If you can fully-charge your RedTop (about 12.6-12.8 volts) and disconnect it from your vehicle, it should be able to hold close to it's maximum voltage for 12-24 hours afterwards. If it can maintain voltage when disconnected from your car, it should be ok. As for your alternator output, we suggest a range of about 13.7-14.7 volts as the norm. If you measure the voltage of your battery at the battery terminals when your engine is running it will indicate alternator output. If you'd like more information on basic diagnostics, we created this YouTube video, which explains them in more detail.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

IXLR8

Jim, so as not to confuse him, those numbers are what he should see after the battery is properly charged with a charger taking the battery to an absorption voltage of the upper 14s...say 14.7V to 14.8V.

The 12.6 (thats a bit low) - 12.8 volts is an open circuit voltage (OCV) after the battery has been disconnected from a charger for 8+ hours.

I'd expect to see about 12.95 OCV from a healthy fully charged AGM battery. That is what we get from our Hawker Enersys 6T AGM batteries.

Jim, don't you find the lower half of that range a bit low for maximum battery life in an AGM?

Also, those numbers are with the alternator "loaded". If he does not have a load tester, he can turn on his high beams, rear window defroster, heater fan on high and windshield wipers on high...all at the same time. He should bring the revs up a bit...say 2000 RPM or a bit more and then measure battery voltage (provided it isn't a problem battery dragging the system down).

Good to see you on RL as well. I wish you would do some searching for me (us); I wouldn't mind having an adjustable voltage regulator in my alternator...I haven't found one yet. I'd like to take it higher than the 14.1 to 14.2 V mine is regulating to.

DocTock993

Alex and Jim -

Thank you both for the informative answers!
I apologize for referring to the battery in an inaccurate manner - I did follow the CTEK instructions (both written and with a call to the company) and have always set the charger to the "snowflake" setting.

In addition, I was not aware that I could not use this battery in a "warm" climate such as Texas - my car is garaged, and while it is not a climate controlled situation (no direct AC/ heat), it does seem to be well insulated as the extremes of the past year did not make the garage unpleasant/ unbearable temp-wise.
Any other Rennlisters in this region have Optima problems?

If the car does not turn over, I'm headed back to original sales place with the battery to let them overnight test and charge and hopefully warranty.

As I have no automotive testing equipment, how should I proceed once I have a new/ "ok" battery to determine if this is an alternator issue? My local (3mi away) wrench is a dealership with outrageous hourly charges. I'd love to go to RAC in Dallas but that's over 40mi away...

IXLR8

In that case, you had it set in the "specialty" battery mode which is also used when charging a battery in colder climates. It limits the voltage to 14.7V. That was the correct setting for an AGM at 25 degrees C; set it to the lower setting during the hot summer months...and that may be too high.

Its not that you can't use it; any battery type, be it AGM. GEL or FLA has a shorter life at higher temperatures. The two things that kill a battery are temperature and vibration, even if you maintain it.

To get the most life out of a battery, it has to be charged correctly, base on temperature. Most if not all voltage regulators have temperature compensation (mV/deg C) and sort of adjust...problem is, our alternators are in the back...the battery is in the front in a sun baked luggage compartment.

On the first point, good electrical connections are the key. Those at the starter and the battery.

On the second point, get yourself this Digital Multimeter (DMM) for starters. I just got one to keep in my 993's kit for $12 from Walmart. A good little meter for the money...it has good rotary switch action. It even has a 10A DC mode. Get a cigarette lighter plug and wire the DMM to it. Monitor your battery voltage while driving...should be about 14.2V this time of year.

DocTock993

OptimaJim / Jim - I sent you a PM re: warranty issues. Please contact me asap

OptimaJim

Hi Alex,

My aim is to not further confuse folks, so I appreciate your questions. When a battery charger goes into absorption rate, it may result in a battery having a surface charge that would be significantly higher than it's OCV, but that surface charge generally dissipates relatively-quickly. A measured voltage range of about 12.6-12.8 volts 12-24 hours later would not be considered low for our RedTops and would allow any surface charge plenty of time to dissipate.

The expected OCV of an AGM battery can vary, based on the chemical composition of the battery. Our YellowTops are generally considered fully-charged at about 13.0-13.2 volts. We are fairly conservative with the numbers we associate with our batteries and are very comfortable with an alternator output range of about 13.7-14.7 volts. The last thing we would want to do would be to give folks the impression that our batteries have very tight charging requirements and voltage ranges that require special procedures. Generally speaking, they can be treated and charged just like regular flooded lead-acid batteries.

Russ, Alex is correct about being able to use our batteries (or anyone else's) in Texas. We do quite a bit of fleet testing in extreme climates, both hot and cold, but extreme temperatures (particularly heat) do tend to shorten battery life. A basic digital multimeter can also be found at most auto parts stores for less than $20 and can be used to perform all of the tests featured in the video I linked in my other post. I'll take a look at your PM right now.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries