1/1/2012 - Starting Down the Slippery Slope
01-01-2012, 09:44 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
1/1/2012 - Starting Down the Slippery Slope
My New Year will begin with yet another "engine drop" blog as I start down the slippery slope. I've had this "old" 98 993 for about a year now, and have come to understand the planning that many 993 owners do to justify dropping the powertrain. For me, the planning began as an exercise to see just how hard it would be to clean up my "weeping" engine. No major oil leaks or a lot of dripping.....but, as with many 911 engines, mine seems to always be "wet".
Then, as I drove the car, I began to "adjust" to the greater power over my past 911's. Of course that means that once you are "adjusted"......you start thinking about more power. The quest just never ends!
I began to research this forum to see what others had done....and that was my undoing. I posted several messages asking for advice on power upgrades to the motor. I ended up speaking with Steve Weiner at Rennsport, who suggested that regearing of my gearbox would provide the most "bang for the buck". Steve is just to encouraging and enthusiastic! He "helped" me (though I did this knowingly and at my own risk) begin the thought process of how to best set up what I think will be a slippery slope. So, if I can pull the powertrain.......just so that I can properly degrease my power train and change out the gearbox.......what else should I do "while in there". The "while in there stuff" leads to paper and pen......and you begin sketching that slippery slope. Add to that Steve's humble and patient nature for answering all my stupid questions that I'm sure he has heard a million time before and the slope begins to take form.
So, let's cut to the chase. What started out as an "excuse" to drop the engine for degreasing has progressed.......and is not finalized.......at doing all the little things that you do when the motor is out of the car (i.e. belts, plugs, degreasing, distributor drive belt, rotors and caps, valve cover gaskets, etc). But, then you move to the really fun stuff: a "new" g50 regeared close ratio gearbox with LSD, cylinder head reconditioning (mileage and SAI driven), connecting rod "resizing" and replacement of the rod bolts and rod bearings, piston and cylinder decarbonization and honing, fitting new piston rings.......and don't forget the remapped ECU. You get the idea!!!
At any rate, I'm going to take my learnings from all the writeups I've read on RL, add to that my personal knowledge of simpler days when I first pulled a 2.2 motor out of one of my 1970 911T (3 hours start to finish to have the motor out of the car), and then to look logically at my 993 to see if there are simpler ways to get the motor out. I will attempt to chronical this (Toga is my idol!) and pass it along. My case is simplified in that I have a 4 post lift in my garage, so I will lift the car off of the motor, which should save some time.
So here we go. As Steve pointed out: let's make this a fun experience (I hope)!
Then, as I drove the car, I began to "adjust" to the greater power over my past 911's. Of course that means that once you are "adjusted"......you start thinking about more power. The quest just never ends!
I began to research this forum to see what others had done....and that was my undoing. I posted several messages asking for advice on power upgrades to the motor. I ended up speaking with Steve Weiner at Rennsport, who suggested that regearing of my gearbox would provide the most "bang for the buck". Steve is just to encouraging and enthusiastic! He "helped" me (though I did this knowingly and at my own risk) begin the thought process of how to best set up what I think will be a slippery slope. So, if I can pull the powertrain.......just so that I can properly degrease my power train and change out the gearbox.......what else should I do "while in there". The "while in there stuff" leads to paper and pen......and you begin sketching that slippery slope. Add to that Steve's humble and patient nature for answering all my stupid questions that I'm sure he has heard a million time before and the slope begins to take form.
So, let's cut to the chase. What started out as an "excuse" to drop the engine for degreasing has progressed.......and is not finalized.......at doing all the little things that you do when the motor is out of the car (i.e. belts, plugs, degreasing, distributor drive belt, rotors and caps, valve cover gaskets, etc). But, then you move to the really fun stuff: a "new" g50 regeared close ratio gearbox with LSD, cylinder head reconditioning (mileage and SAI driven), connecting rod "resizing" and replacement of the rod bolts and rod bearings, piston and cylinder decarbonization and honing, fitting new piston rings.......and don't forget the remapped ECU. You get the idea!!!
At any rate, I'm going to take my learnings from all the writeups I've read on RL, add to that my personal knowledge of simpler days when I first pulled a 2.2 motor out of one of my 1970 911T (3 hours start to finish to have the motor out of the car), and then to look logically at my 993 to see if there are simpler ways to get the motor out. I will attempt to chronical this (Toga is my idol!) and pass it along. My case is simplified in that I have a 4 post lift in my garage, so I will lift the car off of the motor, which should save some time.
So here we go. As Steve pointed out: let's make this a fun experience (I hope)!
Last edited by earossi; 01-01-2012 at 03:17 PM.
01-01-2012, 03:15 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
"The Slope"
Ed: I do not intend on splitting the case. That adds a lot more work to the project, and I am a firm believer (from my other 911's) that these motors have a bottom end that is pretty much bullet proof and good for 200k+ miles if maintained. Of course, as I tear into things, if we begin to find things that point to a bottom end that is not healthy, I may have to add to my scope.
My car has close to 110k miles on it. It just recently failed Illinois emissions inspection (SAI related), so I feel that the heads are pretty much toast (I was able to reset the SAI code and the car did pass emissions finally). Oil consumption is not horrible......about a quart/k miles. Leakdowns on the motor were in the 7 to 10% range when I bought the car a year ago......so, I could drive it a while longer. However, it's at a point where all the "little" preventative maintenance items (like changing the PS belt) when added to my dislike of the weeping oil situation lead me to consider pulling the motor to do all that.
Also, we are "blessed" in that it is now Winter in Chicago, so the car is going to be stored in my heated garage for at least the next 3-4 months; so, this is the opportune time to learn about its internals!
So, here is how the slope works: I need to pull the heads to replace valve guides, enlarge the SAI ports, etc. That means doing a valve job on the motor. With the heads pulled and sent off to Rennsport, the jugs just slide off the pistons. That gives me the opportunity to clean and inspect the jugs and pistons. And with the jugs off the motor, it's easy to change out the rod bolts which I am told are a weak link in the motor. Well, if I pull the rods to change out the bolts (this can be done without splitting the case), I should just go ahead and have the rods reconditioned and fitted for new bearings. And, hopefully, that is where the scope will end.
The bottom line is that when I go back together, I should have a motor that will be robust for at least another 100K+ miles........which will take a long time since I am doing less than 10K miles a year!
I also forgot to mention that I am semi-retired (that is a luxury when you get old) and have a good amount of "piddling" time to spend in my shop; so, I am looking forward to this project as a Winter adventure.
Finally, I probably would not be even thinking about embarking on this "slippery slope project", if it weren't for the folks on this and the Pelican boards, and individuals like Steve Weiner, who is willing to share his knowledge of these cars we so love.
My car has close to 110k miles on it. It just recently failed Illinois emissions inspection (SAI related), so I feel that the heads are pretty much toast (I was able to reset the SAI code and the car did pass emissions finally). Oil consumption is not horrible......about a quart/k miles. Leakdowns on the motor were in the 7 to 10% range when I bought the car a year ago......so, I could drive it a while longer. However, it's at a point where all the "little" preventative maintenance items (like changing the PS belt) when added to my dislike of the weeping oil situation lead me to consider pulling the motor to do all that.
Also, we are "blessed" in that it is now Winter in Chicago, so the car is going to be stored in my heated garage for at least the next 3-4 months; so, this is the opportune time to learn about its internals!
So, here is how the slope works: I need to pull the heads to replace valve guides, enlarge the SAI ports, etc. That means doing a valve job on the motor. With the heads pulled and sent off to Rennsport, the jugs just slide off the pistons. That gives me the opportunity to clean and inspect the jugs and pistons. And with the jugs off the motor, it's easy to change out the rod bolts which I am told are a weak link in the motor. Well, if I pull the rods to change out the bolts (this can be done without splitting the case), I should just go ahead and have the rods reconditioned and fitted for new bearings. And, hopefully, that is where the scope will end.
The bottom line is that when I go back together, I should have a motor that will be robust for at least another 100K+ miles........which will take a long time since I am doing less than 10K miles a year!
I also forgot to mention that I am semi-retired (that is a luxury when you get old) and have a good amount of "piddling" time to spend in my shop; so, I am looking forward to this project as a Winter adventure.
Finally, I probably would not be even thinking about embarking on this "slippery slope project", if it weren't for the folks on this and the Pelican boards, and individuals like Steve Weiner, who is willing to share his knowledge of these cars we so love.
01-01-2012, 03:54 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
It is my belief that changing rod bearings and bolts with the case together is easier on paper than in reality. But, I know some do.
Carrera 3.2 bolts are thinner than SC bolts, and are considered "weaker", but they only time that becomes an issue is when you miss a shift and overrev. They can stretch along with the rods being deformed, but the pistons usually hit the exhaust valves as well, so it gets expensive quickly. Ask me how I know...
Carrera 3.2 bolts are thinner than SC bolts, and are considered "weaker", but they only time that becomes an issue is when you miss a shift and overrev. They can stretch along with the rods being deformed, but the pistons usually hit the exhaust valves as well, so it gets expensive quickly. Ask me how I know...
01-01-2012, 11:42 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
It is my belief that changing rod bearings and bolts with the case together is easier on paper than in reality. But, I know some do.
Carrera 3.2 bolts are thinner than SC bolts, and are considered "weaker", but they only time that becomes an issue is when you miss a shift and overrev. They can stretch along with the rods being deformed, but the pistons usually hit the exhaust valves as well, so it gets expensive quickly. Ask me how I know...
Carrera 3.2 bolts are thinner than SC bolts, and are considered "weaker", but they only time that becomes an issue is when you miss a shift and overrev. They can stretch along with the rods being deformed, but the pistons usually hit the exhaust valves as well, so it gets expensive quickly. Ask me how I know...
Ed,
We shall find out. Steve advised that it was pretty easy to get at the nuts through the spigots, which I visualize as being pretty straight forward. I'll have to bar the motor over to move each rod cap as close to the opening as possible. Splitting the case, to me, would add a good 5-6 hours to the job as well as opening up that slippery slope to such things as crank work and bearings, intermediate shaft work, oil pump, etc. All of which I would prefer to postpone until the motor really is begging for the work!
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01-01-2012, 11:54 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
The Work Begins - Update #1
Spent about 4 hours on the project today. No pictures yet since I am just getting the garage set up. Spread the ramps on my lift so that I have 41" clearance between them. Looks like the motor is approximately 33" wide, so I should have plenty of clearance.
I will be cleaning parts and hardware as I remove it from the car to stay ahead of myself.
Today I did the following from below the car:
1. Drained the oil
2. Removed (2) oil lines. One from the thermostat to the engine and the other from the scavenge pump to the tank.
3. Removed both heater pipes (L & R).
4. Removed the rear sway bar.
5. Removed the flex hose that connects the clutch housing vent to the engine air filter.
6. Removed all (4) O2 sensors from the cat (I will be replacing the OEM cat with a Fabspeed 200 cell sport cat).
7. Unbolted both CV joints at the transmission.
Will start taking some pictures tomorrow.
I have a question for the group. Is it alright to leave the car sitting on its rear tires when I remove the lower brace from the engine. This is the brace that has the alignment eccentrics mounted on the outboard ends. With the car on the lift, I don't think I need access from the wheel wells for any of the work planned.
I will be cleaning parts and hardware as I remove it from the car to stay ahead of myself.
Today I did the following from below the car:
1. Drained the oil
2. Removed (2) oil lines. One from the thermostat to the engine and the other from the scavenge pump to the tank.
3. Removed both heater pipes (L & R).
4. Removed the rear sway bar.
5. Removed the flex hose that connects the clutch housing vent to the engine air filter.
6. Removed all (4) O2 sensors from the cat (I will be replacing the OEM cat with a Fabspeed 200 cell sport cat).
7. Unbolted both CV joints at the transmission.
Will start taking some pictures tomorrow.
I have a question for the group. Is it alright to leave the car sitting on its rear tires when I remove the lower brace from the engine. This is the brace that has the alignment eccentrics mounted on the outboard ends. With the car on the lift, I don't think I need access from the wheel wells for any of the work planned.
01-02-2012, 03:38 AM
#12
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Sounds like fun.
You check out my engine rebuild documentation on pcarworkshop.com, right?
this should be fun but definitely a bit of work. You are going to use ARP bolts, right? I used a stretch gauge when fitting the the rods to the crank, but you cannot do that due to lack of room, so you will have to use the torque method (with burnishing), which will work fine.
Yes, the pistons just slip out of the jugs, but that usually means new rings - there is a slight risk of high incidence of a puff of smoke on startup with new rings, but that is about it.
You are right about the bottom end, it seems to be fairly bulletproof and long lasting. I split my case, but in retrospect I did not have to.
There seems to be a few rennlister going down this path this winter - its good to see!
Oh, check out the engine rebuilding forum on pelican parts for another good source of information.
Cheers,
Mike
You check out my engine rebuild documentation on pcarworkshop.com, right?
this should be fun but definitely a bit of work. You are going to use ARP bolts, right? I used a stretch gauge when fitting the the rods to the crank, but you cannot do that due to lack of room, so you will have to use the torque method (with burnishing), which will work fine.
Yes, the pistons just slip out of the jugs, but that usually means new rings - there is a slight risk of high incidence of a puff of smoke on startup with new rings, but that is about it.
You are right about the bottom end, it seems to be fairly bulletproof and long lasting. I split my case, but in retrospect I did not have to.
There seems to be a few rennlister going down this path this winter - its good to see!
Oh, check out the engine rebuilding forum on pelican parts for another good source of information.
Cheers,
Mike
01-02-2012, 01:42 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Sounds like fun.
You check out my engine rebuild documentation on pcarworkshop.com, right?
this should be fun but definitely a bit of work. You are going to use ARP bolts, right? I used a stretch gauge when fitting the the rods to the crank, but you cannot do that due to lack of room, so you will have to use the torque method (with burnishing), which will work fine.
Yes, the pistons just slip out of the jugs, but that usually means new rings - there is a slight risk of high incidence of a puff of smoke on startup with new rings, but that is about it.
You are right about the bottom end, it seems to be fairly bulletproof and long lasting. I split my case, but in retrospect I did not have to.
There seems to be a few rennlister going down this path this winter - its good to see!
Oh, check out the engine rebuilding forum on pelican parts for another good source of information.
Cheers,
Mike
You check out my engine rebuild documentation on pcarworkshop.com, right?
this should be fun but definitely a bit of work. You are going to use ARP bolts, right? I used a stretch gauge when fitting the the rods to the crank, but you cannot do that due to lack of room, so you will have to use the torque method (with burnishing), which will work fine.
Yes, the pistons just slip out of the jugs, but that usually means new rings - there is a slight risk of high incidence of a puff of smoke on startup with new rings, but that is about it.
You are right about the bottom end, it seems to be fairly bulletproof and long lasting. I split my case, but in retrospect I did not have to.
There seems to be a few rennlister going down this path this winter - its good to see!
Oh, check out the engine rebuilding forum on pelican parts for another good source of information.
Cheers,
Mike
Thanks for your response Mike. Yes, I have read the rebuild docs on your website. And, I do hang out on the Pelican engine rebuilding BB. In fact, I spent last evening researching engine sealants to use off the Pelican site.
I am anticipating putting in new rings when I go back together. What has been your experience with the condition of P&C's at this high mileage (100K+ miles)? Can I just scuff them up with an abrasive pad and soap and water? Or do I need to have them honed? And do you ever see where a ridge has formed at top of the cylinders that needs to be machined out?
Also, I seem to recall that you now have a car lift, right? If so, is there any advice you could provide that would make dropping the motor out of my car on a 4 poster any easier? In particular, onto what do you drop your motors when you lift the car off of them?
I'm finding that in the Midwest, PCA folks spend their winters working on their cars so that when Spring hits, they are all ready to go for the season. This is my first year to be like the rest of the lemmings, I guess!
01-02-2012, 01:53 PM
#14
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Hi Ernie,
Sealants are fun - lots of opinions there!
My P&C's for instance were really in good shape - still had the original marks from the factory, they were well within spec and only required a good deglazing. That was with a car with 80,000 miles. No ridges, no really wear. Take a look at the surfaces and get them measured for round, and go from there.
I have a heavy duty table on wheels that I use to drop the engines on - I use the lift for the the large lifting, but use a few small jacks on the table top to adjust the engine as I work it in and out. I have a two post lift, so it may be a bit different, since I have more clearance. I lower the engine a bit onto the jacks, make sure the table/jacks are taking the weight, and then raise the car with the lift. Just do it slowly, and make sure you check a lot - its easy to have a few cables left and do some damage.
Cheers,
Mike
Sealants are fun - lots of opinions there!
My P&C's for instance were really in good shape - still had the original marks from the factory, they were well within spec and only required a good deglazing. That was with a car with 80,000 miles. No ridges, no really wear. Take a look at the surfaces and get them measured for round, and go from there.
I have a heavy duty table on wheels that I use to drop the engines on - I use the lift for the the large lifting, but use a few small jacks on the table top to adjust the engine as I work it in and out. I have a two post lift, so it may be a bit different, since I have more clearance. I lower the engine a bit onto the jacks, make sure the table/jacks are taking the weight, and then raise the car with the lift. Just do it slowly, and make sure you check a lot - its easy to have a few cables left and do some damage.
Cheers,
Mike
