What shocks are these?
11-17-2011, 06:12 PM
#16
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Gunter, if the springs are too rusty I can almost guarantee that they are not OEM. For some reason Porsche OEM springs retain their black paint and markings really well. And I drive my 993s in snow as daily drivers.
Now... suspension on a 993. It consists of struts and spring in coilover configuration. There are several things that need to be separated out here:
1. OEM shocks on the car were Monroe or Boge used somewhat interchangeably. The US non-turbo cars had taller springs (M032, referred to as SUV height) in regular or stiffer M030 flavors. European cars were available with M030 (shorter stiffer spring) and M033 (shorter softer spring) set ups. They are refered to as RoW (Rest of the World) height. There's also RS setup that had an even shorter spring than RoW and stiffer shock. It is commonly believed that stock shocks last about 30-40K miles. Springs last pretty much forever.
2. Aftermarket replacements. Common replacement shocks for a 993 are Bilstein HD and new Koni FSD. They are good alternative to Monroes and Boges, last much longer, have lifetime warranty and work reasonably well with both M030 and M033 springs as well as aftermarked H&R and Eibach springs. There are a whole bunch of nuances and discussions on whether HD is underdamped for H&R or M030. There have been enough holy grale religious wars on this subject. Simply decide how soft you want your car to be and based on that go with either M033 (softer) or M030/H&R (stiffer). Both H&R and RoW M030 will give you RoW height. The spring has a specific height and can be compressed. The actual height adjustment is on the collar of the strut itself. Bilstein HD is adjustable enough to get the car down to RS height, although I'd really not do that on the street.
3. Aftermarket coilovers. Well, they are all coilovers on 993. So if you are after street cred you can say that you have coilovers now and forget about wasting money. If, however, you decide that you want adjustability of rebound and possibly compression, you can go with adjustable coilovers. The basic solution here is Bilstein PSS10. The more upscale KW3 is a better shock from what I've seen. H&R makes adjustable coilovers but they are considered a bit too stiff for the street. Etc, etc, ad nauseum.
All of the above is with the view of setting up a street car with or without an occasional autocross thrown in. My own solution had been Bilstein HDs with H&Rs and on the current car Bilstein HDs with M030s. This is, by far, not an ideal solution in either case, but rather a compromise for my own use (street DD and 4-5 autocross events a year). I would probably go with M033s for more of a street-only car and probably would try Koni FSD with them.
Bottom line... forget what everyone is saying. Decide honestly what it is that you need for handling/comfort balance. Then, and only then, start looking at possible solutions to your specific needs. While understanding that the exact solution will not exist, it'll still be a compromise.
Now... suspension on a 993. It consists of struts and spring in coilover configuration. There are several things that need to be separated out here:
1. OEM shocks on the car were Monroe or Boge used somewhat interchangeably. The US non-turbo cars had taller springs (M032, referred to as SUV height) in regular or stiffer M030 flavors. European cars were available with M030 (shorter stiffer spring) and M033 (shorter softer spring) set ups. They are refered to as RoW (Rest of the World) height. There's also RS setup that had an even shorter spring than RoW and stiffer shock. It is commonly believed that stock shocks last about 30-40K miles. Springs last pretty much forever.
2. Aftermarket replacements. Common replacement shocks for a 993 are Bilstein HD and new Koni FSD. They are good alternative to Monroes and Boges, last much longer, have lifetime warranty and work reasonably well with both M030 and M033 springs as well as aftermarked H&R and Eibach springs. There are a whole bunch of nuances and discussions on whether HD is underdamped for H&R or M030. There have been enough holy grale religious wars on this subject. Simply decide how soft you want your car to be and based on that go with either M033 (softer) or M030/H&R (stiffer). Both H&R and RoW M030 will give you RoW height. The spring has a specific height and can be compressed. The actual height adjustment is on the collar of the strut itself. Bilstein HD is adjustable enough to get the car down to RS height, although I'd really not do that on the street.
3. Aftermarket coilovers. Well, they are all coilovers on 993. So if you are after street cred you can say that you have coilovers now and forget about wasting money. If, however, you decide that you want adjustability of rebound and possibly compression, you can go with adjustable coilovers. The basic solution here is Bilstein PSS10. The more upscale KW3 is a better shock from what I've seen. H&R makes adjustable coilovers but they are considered a bit too stiff for the street. Etc, etc, ad nauseum.
All of the above is with the view of setting up a street car with or without an occasional autocross thrown in. My own solution had been Bilstein HDs with H&Rs and on the current car Bilstein HDs with M030s. This is, by far, not an ideal solution in either case, but rather a compromise for my own use (street DD and 4-5 autocross events a year). I would probably go with M033s for more of a street-only car and probably would try Koni FSD with them.
Bottom line... forget what everyone is saying. Decide honestly what it is that you need for handling/comfort balance. Then, and only then, start looking at possible solutions to your specific needs. While understanding that the exact solution will not exist, it'll still be a compromise.
11-17-2011, 08:06 PM
#17
Great concise summary Mike. I would add that ROW MO30 or MO33 springs result in ROW sport ride height which is somewhat lower than std. ROW ride height. This is the height I was after when I installed my MO33/Bilstein HD combo.
11-17-2011, 08:34 PM
#18
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Chuck, I think that would somewhat depend on the setting of the strut collar, no? RoW M029 springs are longer and are true RoW height, but I think that you could get the same height with M030 and M033.
I might be wrong on this, though, would be interesting to hear from people who have measured things.
I might be wrong on this, though, would be interesting to hear from people who have measured things.
11-17-2011, 09:29 PM
#19
My understanding is also that ROW MO30 springs and MO33 springs give the same height which is lower than with ROW MO29 springs. This is how it worked out for me. Of course, there is a limited range of height adjustment possible by the positioning of the spring perches on Bilstein HD's. Not sure if the same adjustment is possible with Koni's.
11-17-2011, 09:42 PM
#20
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Actually, current Bilsteins HDs can be adjusted up and down from at least RS height to at least US-SUV height and probably beyond both. This is why they started putting more threads on the front ones about 5-6 years ago.
11-18-2011, 11:34 AM
#21
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Gunter, if the springs are too rusty I can almost guarantee that they are not OEM. For some reason Porsche OEM springs retain their black paint and markings really well. And I drive my 993s in snow as daily drivers.
Now... suspension on a 993. It consists of struts and spring in coilover configuration. There are several things that need to be separated out here:
1. OEM shocks on the car were Monroe or Boge used somewhat interchangeably. The US non-turbo cars had taller springs (M032, referred to as SUV height) in regular or stiffer M030 flavors. European cars were available with M030 (shorter stiffer spring) and M033 (shorter softer spring) set ups. They are refered to as RoW (Rest of the World) height. There's also RS setup that had an even shorter spring than RoW and stiffer shock. It is commonly believed that stock shocks last about 30-40K miles. Springs last pretty much forever.
2. Aftermarket replacements. . They are good alternative to Monroes and Boges, last much longer, have lifetime warranty and work reasonably well with both M030 and M033 springs as well as aftermarked H&R and Eibach springs. There are a whole bunch of nuances and discussions on whether HD is underdamped for H&R or M030. There have been enough holy grale religious wars on this subject. Simply decide how soft you want your car to be and based on that go with either M033 (softer) or M030/H&R (stiffer). Both H&R and RoW M030 will give you RoW height. The spring has a specific height and can be compressed. The actual height adjustment is on the collar of the strut itself. Bilstein HD is adjustable enough to get the car down to RS height, although I'd really not do that on the street.
"Common replacement shocks for a 993 are Bilstein HD and new Koni FSD" Does that mean I can keep my springs front and rear? Meaning: I can get a whole new front strut Bilstein or Koni and re-use my current springs? Or is it advisable to get new springs 030 or 033 at the same time?
3. Aftermarket coilovers. Well, they are all coilovers on 993. So if you are after street cred you can say that you have coilovers now and forget about wasting money. If, however, you decide that you want adjustability of rebound and possibly compression, you can go with adjustable coilovers. The basic solution here is Bilstein PSS10. The more upscale KW3 is a better shock from what I've seen. H&R makes adjustable coilovers but they are considered a bit too stiff for the street. Etc, etc, ad nauseum.
All of the above is with the view of setting up a street car with or without an occasional autocross thrown in. My own solution had been Bilstein HDs with H&Rs and on the current car Bilstein HDs with M030s. This is, by far, not an ideal solution in either case, but rather a compromise for my own use (street DD and 4-5 autocross events a year). I would probably go with M033s for more of a street-only car and probably would try Koni FSD with them.
Bottom line... forget what everyone is saying. Decide honestly what it is that you need for handling/comfort balance. Then, and only then, start looking at possible solutions to your specific needs. While understanding that the exact solution will not exist, it'll still be a compromise.
Now... suspension on a 993. It consists of struts and spring in coilover configuration. There are several things that need to be separated out here:
1. OEM shocks on the car were Monroe or Boge used somewhat interchangeably. The US non-turbo cars had taller springs (M032, referred to as SUV height) in regular or stiffer M030 flavors. European cars were available with M030 (shorter stiffer spring) and M033 (shorter softer spring) set ups. They are refered to as RoW (Rest of the World) height. There's also RS setup that had an even shorter spring than RoW and stiffer shock. It is commonly believed that stock shocks last about 30-40K miles. Springs last pretty much forever.
2. Aftermarket replacements. . They are good alternative to Monroes and Boges, last much longer, have lifetime warranty and work reasonably well with both M030 and M033 springs as well as aftermarked H&R and Eibach springs. There are a whole bunch of nuances and discussions on whether HD is underdamped for H&R or M030. There have been enough holy grale religious wars on this subject. Simply decide how soft you want your car to be and based on that go with either M033 (softer) or M030/H&R (stiffer). Both H&R and RoW M030 will give you RoW height. The spring has a specific height and can be compressed. The actual height adjustment is on the collar of the strut itself. Bilstein HD is adjustable enough to get the car down to RS height, although I'd really not do that on the street.
"Common replacement shocks for a 993 are Bilstein HD and new Koni FSD" Does that mean I can keep my springs front and rear? Meaning: I can get a whole new front strut Bilstein or Koni and re-use my current springs? Or is it advisable to get new springs 030 or 033 at the same time?
3. Aftermarket coilovers. Well, they are all coilovers on 993. So if you are after street cred you can say that you have coilovers now and forget about wasting money. If, however, you decide that you want adjustability of rebound and possibly compression, you can go with adjustable coilovers. The basic solution here is Bilstein PSS10. The more upscale KW3 is a better shock from what I've seen. H&R makes adjustable coilovers but they are considered a bit too stiff for the street. Etc, etc, ad nauseum.
All of the above is with the view of setting up a street car with or without an occasional autocross thrown in. My own solution had been Bilstein HDs with H&Rs and on the current car Bilstein HDs with M030s. This is, by far, not an ideal solution in either case, but rather a compromise for my own use (street DD and 4-5 autocross events a year). I would probably go with M033s for more of a street-only car and probably would try Koni FSD with them.
Bottom line... forget what everyone is saying. Decide honestly what it is that you need for handling/comfort balance. Then, and only then, start looking at possible solutions to your specific needs. While understanding that the exact solution will not exist, it'll still be a compromise.
I like spirited driving and hard cornering on country roads, no track or autocross. No complaints about the current height or handling and would like to know more about choices for when the time comes to renew the suspension.
11-18-2011, 12:33 PM
#22
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The stock shocks in the front have threaded perches that allow for the car to be corner balanced. They are of limited length, so of no use for lowering, which is where the spring length and stiffness comes in. The rears are fixed.
In the rear, the shocks are truly dampeners, but in the front, they also play a larger role in the suspension.
The PSS09's and 10's have a fully threaded shock body, so the suspension adjustment range is quite large. With that setup, you do not need to change springs to radically change the ride height. You also can get more exact on corner balancing, and allow for things like driver's weight in the seat.
Cheers,
Mike
In the rear, the shocks are truly dampeners, but in the front, they also play a larger role in the suspension.
The PSS09's and 10's have a fully threaded shock body, so the suspension adjustment range is quite large. With that setup, you do not need to change springs to radically change the ride height. You also can get more exact on corner balancing, and allow for things like driver's weight in the seat.
Cheers,
Mike
11-18-2011, 01:01 PM
#23
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The stock shocks in the front have threaded perches that allow for the car to be corner balanced. They are of limited length, so of no use for lowering, which is where the spring length and stiffness comes in. The rears are fixed.
In the rear, the shocks are truly dampeners, but in the front, they also play a larger role in the suspension.
The PSS09's and 10's have a fully threaded shock body, so the suspension adjustment range is quite large. With that setup, you do not need to change springs to radically change the ride height. You also can get more exact on corner balancing, and allow for things like driver's weight in the seat.
Cheers,
Mike
In the rear, the shocks are truly dampeners, but in the front, they also play a larger role in the suspension.
The PSS09's and 10's have a fully threaded shock body, so the suspension adjustment range is quite large. With that setup, you do not need to change springs to radically change the ride height. You also can get more exact on corner balancing, and allow for things like driver's weight in the seat.
Cheers,
Mike
One note on the lowering and ride height. I realize that everyone here is against the stock SUV height that US/CND regulations demanded. Having said that one of the key components in the 993 suspension is the kinematic. Lowering the car too much it affects IMO negatively the setup of the car and ultimately the handling of it.
For the front unless you install EVO uprights, RS tie rods etc you are going to have bump steer.
For the rear most likely your kinematic will not be optimally adjusted. Further to that the rear stock sway bar links may snap( it happened to me) and in general IMO the rear suspension is not doing what Porsche designed it to do, unless you fully change up all pertinent components as per RS specs.
Through research and personal experience with these cars all these years, I have concluded that for a street setup the Euro ride height is the optimal setup with all stock components on and a coilover change only.
11-18-2011, 01:22 PM
#24
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Thank you, Mike and Danny.
"Euro ride height is the optimal setup with all stock components on and a coilover change only"
To be clear: Coilover change would only mean springs and shocks according to ones individual choice like 030 or 033 springs with Bilstein HD or Koni FSD?
What springs come with PSS10's? Comparable to 030 or 033?
Slowly getting my head around this and appreciate your patience.
Gunter, I will second what Mike summarized. Unfortunately ride firmness, heights etc is all very subjective. What may feel soft for me, maybe too harsh for someone else and via versa. So the bottomline is with a PSS9-10 you have the adjustability to tune your car to your taste and that is your best bet.
One note on the lowering and ride height. I realize that everyone here is against the stock SUV height that US/CND regulations demanded. Having said that one of the key components in the 993 suspension is the kinematic. Lowering the car too much it affects IMO negatively the setup of the car and ultimately the handling of it.
For the front unless you install EVO uprights, RS tie rods etc you are going to have bump steer.
For the rear most likely your kinematic will not be optimally adjusted. Further to that the rear stock sway bar links may snap( it happened to me) and in general IMO the rear suspension is not doing what Porsche designed it to do, unless you fully change up all pertinent components as per RS specs.
Through research and personal experience with these cars all these years, I have concluded that for a street setup the Euro ride height is the optimal setup with all stock components on and a coilover change only.
One note on the lowering and ride height. I realize that everyone here is against the stock SUV height that US/CND regulations demanded. Having said that one of the key components in the 993 suspension is the kinematic. Lowering the car too much it affects IMO negatively the setup of the car and ultimately the handling of it.
For the front unless you install EVO uprights, RS tie rods etc you are going to have bump steer.
For the rear most likely your kinematic will not be optimally adjusted. Further to that the rear stock sway bar links may snap( it happened to me) and in general IMO the rear suspension is not doing what Porsche designed it to do, unless you fully change up all pertinent components as per RS specs.
Through research and personal experience with these cars all these years, I have concluded that for a street setup the Euro ride height is the optimal setup with all stock components on and a coilover change only.
To be clear: Coilover change would only mean springs and shocks according to ones individual choice like 030 or 033 springs with Bilstein HD or Koni FSD?
What springs come with PSS10's? Comparable to 030 or 033?
Slowly getting my head around this and appreciate your patience.
11-18-2011, 01:26 PM
#25
Take some time to decide what you want to achieve and if posible, try driving cars with different setups to help with the final decison. The labor to install and then do an alignment is considerable and roughly the same for any of the discussed changes and you want to this only once.
I did not follow this advice and wound up doing the install twice myself.
I did not follow this advice and wound up doing the install twice myself.
11-18-2011, 02:18 PM
#26
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Not only PSS9 and 10 have threaded bodies. Regular Bilstein HDs have threaded bodies as well and allow as much height adjustment as PSS9/10.
They are _all_ coilovers on a 993. Stock, Bilstein HD, PSS910. All are coilovers. When people talk about adjustable coilovers they talk about a **** (or separate reservoir) adjusting the stiffness (rebound rate) of the shock itself.
This, I think, is what's confusing Gunter. Adjusting height is a different animal. Almost all aftermarket suspensions for a 993 allow for collar height adjustment, whether they are called "adjustable coilovers" or not.
I hate giving suspension advise, but I would measure the current height and try to determine what springs are on the car based on that. From there I'd go with Bilstein HDs or Koni FSD with current springs or M030/M033/H&R. There should be a bunch of 993s around to try and determine what one likes.
Finally, heed what Danny said. Slamming the 993 to RS or close height will play some very mean tricks on ability to get proper camber both front and rear.
They are _all_ coilovers on a 993. Stock, Bilstein HD, PSS910. All are coilovers. When people talk about adjustable coilovers they talk about a **** (or separate reservoir) adjusting the stiffness (rebound rate) of the shock itself.
This, I think, is what's confusing Gunter. Adjusting height is a different animal. Almost all aftermarket suspensions for a 993 allow for collar height adjustment, whether they are called "adjustable coilovers" or not.
I hate giving suspension advise, but I would measure the current height and try to determine what springs are on the car based on that. From there I'd go with Bilstein HDs or Koni FSD with current springs or M030/M033/H&R. There should be a bunch of 993s around to try and determine what one likes.
Finally, heed what Danny said. Slamming the 993 to RS or close height will play some very mean tricks on ability to get proper camber both front and rear.
11-18-2011, 02:27 PM
#27
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Thread Starter
Good stuff and it makes a lot of sense.
I certainly wouldn't want to go lower. 1/2" to 3/4" higher if anything.
But, if I keep the current springs, going slightly higher wouldn't be an option. Correct?
I certainly wouldn't want to go lower. 1/2" to 3/4" higher if anything.
But, if I keep the current springs, going slightly higher wouldn't be an option. Correct?
11-18-2011, 03:13 PM
#28
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By biting the bullet and going on a PSS-9/10 setup you avoid the guess work, mismatched shock and springs rates, ultimately setting the ride height you want and setting up the car properly. That is what I would do if I had to do this all over again.
My 2 cents on this one...
11-18-2011, 04:11 PM
#29
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I'd say with 98.6% certainty that you'll be able to go higher with Bilstein HD and existing springs.
Now... there's a balance between spring stiffness and shock valving. it's infinitely more important for both handling and comfort. And my biggest issue with existing springs would be that you don't know the spring rates until you figure out what those springs are. So you might have to pay extra $400 and swap in known springs to make sure they'll work with whatever shocks you'd go with. Or take chances with existing springs.
11-18-2011, 05:51 PM
#30
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And even if you do know what springs you have, you don't know what the spring rates are. I asked that question some months ago for the various M0XX Porsche springs...nobody knew. Other questions are: are they linear or progressive, what are their free lengths when new, etc?