pjstevens77

I happen to have a side business appraising classic cars. I have a ton of fun doing and make some pocket money. I did one today that I thought you folks might find interesting.

Here's the deal:

1989.5 (964) 911 C4 (AWD) 5 speed.
Body has been updated to 993T wide body and I mean the full monty. Looking at this car the only way to tell it's not a real 993 is the gauge cluster.
Only 89 parts on it are the doors and the glass, and the AWD transaxle.

The engine is from a 95 993 with 12K orig miles, tuned and professionally installed, updated ECU, harness etc. Turbo wheels.. thie thing looks like a legit 993T (my all time favorite in the 911 family)

The body kit is an all carbon fiber kit, this guy has spent $12,500 on the motor and install, $7,000 fir the body kit and another $2500 for coil over suspension. the car is in impeccable condition as it was almost ready to roll out of the body shop until....

The car was parked outside the shop, windows open and sitting next to a few other customer cars. The trash truck comes in and starts to do it's thing nearby when a hydraulic line on the truck burst spewing over 100 gallons on the property. It filled the 911 inside, outside and it has seeped into the trunk and all over the engine bay. Also destroyed was an 86 Jeep CJ fully restored and a 2008 Dodge Ram Quad Cab.

We are fighting with the insurance company because they want to value it as an 89 with 90K miles, when it's clearly not. I think total investment at this point is north of $50,000. My job is to determine what the value is before the incident.

I think I know the number, but it's a tough call with these mods. I'm curious to know what you guys think.

Mike J

Wow, interesting situation for sure.

As you know, these cars lose a lot of value when they are taken "off-stock", which this one clearly did. The investment into the car doe not impact the value - the value is what someone would pay for the car.

So its like a C4S then, given a NA engine but the AWD and widebody, right? The mileage is still the mileage on the body and running geat. Does it have the 964 suspension, not the 993, right? It was not clear, did they use a 993 body (since you said its all been replaced but the AWD and the doors/glass), or is it a kid on top of a 964 tub?

If so, and if it was on the open market, most Porsche addicts would not touch it - its too much of a change. I would say its not worth that much, perhaps $25K on a very good day, but lower if its unfinished. Certainly less than $20K if the work is second rate.

Just a guess though....

Cheers,

Mike

matt777

IMHO less than a '95 993. If it's deemed to be a write-off and I was the owner I'd take the money for an 89 if I got to keep the car. It might be a decent compromise for both parties.

ps the body kit might be based on a TT (twin turbo) but a '95 engine will just be normally aspirated.

pjstevens77

I have a "market adjustment" in my figure to deduct for the fact that it's not a real 993. The car started as a 964 C4 and all the body panels except the doors and glass were changed. He almost ordered the rear glass but then this happened. So basically it's a body kit, actually a CF body kit. The fluid will eventually cause these panel to delaminate in a few years so his 200+ hours of body work is all for nothing. Even the floors under the carpet is loaded with it. This guy owns the body shop, he as a low mileage 86 930 and this was going to be a present for his wife, he was practically in tears.

Anyway, so he cut the original QP's off at the rain gutter, there is not once ounce of orange peel, no sand marks, not signs of uneven filler, the gaps were all perfect. The car overall was a condition 2 car, everything was perfect. He put a coil over kit on it, so I am going to say no on the actual 993 suspension.

I'm not a fan of modding these cars to make them look like a different chassis, but people turn these things into wanna be's all the time. The odd thing is, there really wasn't all that many of these 1989 MY 964 C4's and the 993 is now one of the most desirable of the air cooled 911's. So I think he's a muscle car guy turned Porsche, otherwise that wouldn't have happend. With all the money he's poured intot he car he could have had...A real 993 C4, throw some wheels on it and walah! None of this jigsaw puzzle crap, imagine trying to sell a car like this?

To summarize - a 964 chassis, trans and interior, 993T body, 993 NA 3.6 and coil overs, perfect paint and body work. Turbo Wheels. It was almost done, he just needed to button up a few things in the engine bay but it runs great.

I know cars well, I know P cars even better but these Frankenstein's are a challenge. In some cases clones can be very nice. I think this is one of those cases. This car is impeccably clean and well built, not a backyard job by any means, body work is what the owner does for a living and he spared nothing on this car. I want to be in the $27-$33k range. That's what my gut is telling me.

firesm

I think you've come to the wrong place if you were hoping to get someone to agree with you on that value. A lot of guys here think the value of these cars are lowered if there is an aftermarket stereo... Unfortunately with custom cars they are never worth even half of what someone has in it - that's not to say that it's possible that somewhere someone would pay that kind of money for that car, but I don't think it would be anyone on this forum...IMHO

CalvinC4S

They will probably give you 89 money, be sure to buy it back and part out the motor/gearbox/chassis.
Those 3 items are worth much more on there own then the value of that car before the damage.

pjstevens77

I totally agree with you there. This isn't the place for this car. But I want to point out that an appraisal price and what you can actually buy the car for can be two different things on many occasions. Would I actually pay that much for this car, no. Is it worth that much to the right buyer, at the right time under at or near ideal market situations? That is what fair value is about. I'm not asking what anyone would pay for the car.

jscott82

So lets flip this around.... What would it be worth if I took a 993 and swapped in a 964 suspension and interior? The 964 would be worth slightly less than that... 20k, maybe?

pjstevens77

I thought it would make an interesting topic. Let's flip it again - Look at some of the replicas for instance, or a clone. What happens when you take a 71 Lemans convertible and turn it into a GTO clone with a blueprinted 400 and all the relative engine, suspension and body parts? Is it worth book value of the 71 Lemans? No. Is it worth book value of a GTO? Hell no. Now what would a GTO purist say about the car? Probably that it's not worthy of much respect because it's not a matching #'s car, or that it's a pig with lipstick. A purist or a serious collector would not touch the car. But it's got to be worth something to someone?

See what I mean?

race911

Anything over $20K and he's money ahead. Why not take say $15K and the salvage? He can get $10-15K from a part out. Bottom line is that you hack, you assume part of the risk.

ilko

If the owner actually wants to sell the damn thing he's probably looking at getting about half of that range.

From an insurance point of view and no agreed value I'd be happy to walk away with $20K unfortunately.

briefescape

" 1989.5 (964) 911 C4 (AWD) 5 speed.
Body has been updated to 993T wide body and I mean the full monty. Looking at this car the only way to tell it's not a real 993 is the gauge cluster.
Only 89 parts on it are the doors and the glass, and the AWD transaxle. "

" Full monty " ?I would be surprise to see that he changed the 964 windshield wiper motors to 993 specs ( the distance between windshield wiper blades ) .
That is the first thing I notice when I hear of a updated model .If the car has that kind of detail then I would start to be impress with the build .Just saying .

Price ? Well throw numbers at insurance company and get the best price you can with your best compelling argument to justify your numbers .

Cheers Guy

UserA

Sounds like you just want us to agree with you and not actually give advice. The Frankenstein car is worth less than 20K even if the conversion was done by Ferdinand himself.

177mph

The awd system is what devalues it for me - beyond the body conversion. I wouldnt want to own a 964 with awd...

MDamen

I'm stuck on "body kit." It doesn't have 993 fenders. It has a body kit. Sounds like it is really well done, but still a body kit. There is a buyer for every car, and the buyer of this car would not be a purist or a collector, so they are not willing to put up much money. They want a 993 but cant afford 993 prices. For me, that puts it at less than 993 price range. I would put it around 20k if it was in really good condition. Did you mention the miles on the chassis? I saw 12k miles on the engine, but what are the miles on the chassis?

For comparison, what is an 89 964 worth?