Winter projects 2012 – S/C installation, Interior rebuild etc.
10-21-2011, 02:31 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Winter projects 2012 – S/C installation, Interior rebuild etc.
As some of you may know, a couple of years ago I traded my ex 2004 GT3 for my current 993 (with a fellow Rennlister Chuck P.).
I love everything about the 993 except for the lack of power (compared to the GT3).
My car is re-geared and quite light so the situation is not as bad as with a stock US model 993 but yet I long for the power and speed of the GT3.
I have been thinking about getting another 6GT3. a 7GT3 is out of my budget here in Finland due to the taxation (cars here are 2x US price) and I don’t want to sell the 993. And as good as a 6GT3 is, I like my 993 better!!!. That’s why I have been thinking about doing something with the engine to quench my thirst for power.
I have looked at different alternatives:
1. Stay normally Aspirated
9M could provide me with everything I need to make a really nice NA engine. However it is quite an expensive route. I estimate a total of at least 25k Euros for a decent build resulting in a ~350hp engine. Maybe even more could be achieved by running really aggressive cams but I would then have problems with the yearly smog testing.
2. Turbo
Then I looked into turbocharging; Protomotive turbo kit is quite reasonably priced (vs. gains) but then again, everyone recommends lowering the compression a bit. And while you’re there, change the pistons and cylinders to forged turbo ones etc. etc. . One thing requires another and I end up with a 25-30k total cost.
And in the end I think I would be better off just buying a used 993 turbo engine…
Before you say, sell the car and get a 993tt, please re-read above about taxation in Finland. (plus I’m not interested in 4wd and starting all over again with all the track modding)
3. Supercharger
The TPC supercharger kit seems to have plenty of happy users. (I haven’t read about any mishaps or melted engines connected with the TPC kit). It is quite a simple bolt on job and requires no modification to the engine (because of the very very mild boost). It is therefore also very easy to return everything back to stock, which is a plus for me.
I don’t like the piggy bag engine management with thee additional injectors, but since I’m running Motec, I don’t need them. Just bigger injectors and I’m good to go. (and of course a lot of mapping/tuning).
The ambient temperatures here in Finland (during summer) is about 10-15 dgr celsius lower than in Florida for example so I think I may be ok with the non intercooled version of the kit. I am not too fond of adding the water to an aircooled car.
However a water/alcohol injection might be good investment for safety reasons. (I had it on my supercharged M3 and it worked like a charm).
I already contacted TPC Racing and they will be sending me a quote for a kit without the additional injector system.
I love everything about the 993 except for the lack of power (compared to the GT3).
My car is re-geared and quite light so the situation is not as bad as with a stock US model 993 but yet I long for the power and speed of the GT3.
I have been thinking about getting another 6GT3. a 7GT3 is out of my budget here in Finland due to the taxation (cars here are 2x US price) and I don’t want to sell the 993. And as good as a 6GT3 is, I like my 993 better!!!. That’s why I have been thinking about doing something with the engine to quench my thirst for power.
I have looked at different alternatives:
1. Stay normally Aspirated
9M could provide me with everything I need to make a really nice NA engine. However it is quite an expensive route. I estimate a total of at least 25k Euros for a decent build resulting in a ~350hp engine. Maybe even more could be achieved by running really aggressive cams but I would then have problems with the yearly smog testing.
2. Turbo
Then I looked into turbocharging; Protomotive turbo kit is quite reasonably priced (vs. gains) but then again, everyone recommends lowering the compression a bit. And while you’re there, change the pistons and cylinders to forged turbo ones etc. etc. . One thing requires another and I end up with a 25-30k total cost.
And in the end I think I would be better off just buying a used 993 turbo engine…
Before you say, sell the car and get a 993tt, please re-read above about taxation in Finland. (plus I’m not interested in 4wd and starting all over again with all the track modding)
3. Supercharger
The TPC supercharger kit seems to have plenty of happy users. (I haven’t read about any mishaps or melted engines connected with the TPC kit). It is quite a simple bolt on job and requires no modification to the engine (because of the very very mild boost). It is therefore also very easy to return everything back to stock, which is a plus for me.
I don’t like the piggy bag engine management with thee additional injectors, but since I’m running Motec, I don’t need them. Just bigger injectors and I’m good to go. (and of course a lot of mapping/tuning).
The ambient temperatures here in Finland (during summer) is about 10-15 dgr celsius lower than in Florida for example so I think I may be ok with the non intercooled version of the kit. I am not too fond of adding the water to an aircooled car.
However a water/alcohol injection might be good investment for safety reasons. (I had it on my supercharged M3 and it worked like a charm).
I already contacted TPC Racing and they will be sending me a quote for a kit without the additional injector system.
Last edited by Juha G; 12-29-2011 at 06:31 AM.
10-21-2011, 02:53 PM
#2
The supercharger seemed to be the best bang-for-the-euro solution (1/5 of the 9M cost) and seemed to be easiest to install/remove.
However, the 9M (as expensive as it would be) seemed to be the best in retaining the character and value of your car.
You settled on the supercharger?
However, the 9M (as expensive as it would be) seemed to be the best in retaining the character and value of your car.
You settled on the supercharger?
10-21-2011, 03:10 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The supercharger seemed to be the best bang-for-the-euro solution (1/5 of the 9M cost) and seemed to be easiest to install/remove.
However, the 9M (as expensive as it would be) seemed to be the best in retaining the character and value of your car.
You settled on the supercharger?
However, the 9M (as expensive as it would be) seemed to be the best in retaining the character and value of your car.
You settled on the supercharger?
I don't care about the re-sale value of the car because I have decided to never sell it.
10-21-2011, 09:17 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Sc is the easy solution. +1 on SC Juha.
When I was looking into more power, I really wanted to go Motec. But that was out of the question as no one has done a tippy with Motec. No one has attempted to get the tippy ecu to talk with the Motec.
What type of performance where you able to achieve with Motec?
9M Motec upgrade is said to produce up to 330fwbhp.
This is where I originally wanted to go.
When I was looking into more power, I really wanted to go Motec. But that was out of the question as no one has done a tippy with Motec. No one has attempted to get the tippy ecu to talk with the Motec.
What type of performance where you able to achieve with Motec?
9M Motec upgrade is said to produce up to 330fwbhp.
This is where I originally wanted to go.
10-23-2011, 06:48 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Sc is the easy solution. +1 on SC Juha.
When I was looking into more power, I really wanted to go Motec. But that was out of the question as no one has done a tippy with Motec. No one has attempted to get the tippy ecu to talk with the Motec.
What type of performance where you able to achieve with Motec?
9M Motec upgrade is said to produce up to 330fwbhp.
This is where I originally wanted to go.
When I was looking into more power, I really wanted to go Motec. But that was out of the question as no one has done a tippy with Motec. No one has attempted to get the tippy ecu to talk with the Motec.
What type of performance where you able to achieve with Motec?
9M Motec upgrade is said to produce up to 330fwbhp.
This is where I originally wanted to go.
I will first first do the maps for NA and only after that I will install the supercharger. Then it should be a quite straight forward job.
Tom from TPC suggested I run a larger throttle body and since I have Motec, I don't need the MAF and will be using MAP instead to control.
According to Tom, the size of the throttle body seriously restricts the flow (and power that can be taken out).
10-23-2011, 07:52 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
Interesting - larger TB hey. What make and model TB did he suggest?
I would say that with the SC installed both stock TB and headers are restrictions in the system.
I would say that with the SC installed both stock TB and headers are restrictions in the system.
10-23-2011, 08:44 AM
#7
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I also considered a SC. But I recommend going the 9M way. You will loose a lot of weight when you remove the stock induction system, not to mention that the SC adds weight.
The beautiful noise that the ITBs make will let you fall in love with your car again. You will retain the true NA RSR heritage the marque is known for.
But then again, who can argue with the value you can get from a SC?
But why count the cost when the benefits are emotions that are stirred by the engine?
Your soul will be stirred with the NA engine. Honda, was quoted as saying that "passion is when your soul is stirred". Or something along that line.....
The beautiful noise that the ITBs make will let you fall in love with your car again. You will retain the true NA RSR heritage the marque is known for.
But then again, who can argue with the value you can get from a SC?
But why count the cost when the benefits are emotions that are stirred by the engine?
Your soul will be stirred with the NA engine. Honda, was quoted as saying that "passion is when your soul is stirred". Or something along that line.....
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10-23-2011, 10:51 AM
#8
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Juha,
I've had the opportunity to meet and interview Michael Levitas, the owner of TPC. He is an impressive guy on many levels: driver, team owner and mechanic. I've also driven some examples of his work, a 750 HP 997 Turbo and SC'd Cayman S. In both cars, the mapping was perfect. He is extremely knowledgeable about the cars and his products. I believe he designs and builds high quality upgrades. If you do go the TPC route you should feel confident that you are getting a well thought out product.
The next few sentences are not meant to be advice. I am just relating my experience. Like you, I've had a GT3 and have come back to the 993. I used to spend a lot of time on the track but a growing family and the commitments that go along with that have conspired to limit my track time for now. Also, and I don't know anything about the roads or speed limits in Finland or how you use your car, but here in Atlanta we have a lot of traffic and police making speeding a risky proposition. The GT3s are great cars but you really need to be on track to safely enjoy the performance and speed they offer. They really shine above 100 MPH. The 993 in near stock form, on the other hand, makes great sounds and is still pretty fun in the 60-80 MPH range. Every time I start to miss the power of a GT3, I remind myself why I like the 993 so much.
Some will read the above and say, "by that logic, a slower car should be even better." I've tried that route with a E30 M3. They are fun cars but, for me, a 993 offers modern looks, comfort and safety in an almost bulletproof package that is very user maintainable.
In any case, it sounds like you have a fun project that offers an opportunity to learn some interesting new skills. Good luck with it.
Hank
I've had the opportunity to meet and interview Michael Levitas, the owner of TPC. He is an impressive guy on many levels: driver, team owner and mechanic. I've also driven some examples of his work, a 750 HP 997 Turbo and SC'd Cayman S. In both cars, the mapping was perfect. He is extremely knowledgeable about the cars and his products. I believe he designs and builds high quality upgrades. If you do go the TPC route you should feel confident that you are getting a well thought out product.
The next few sentences are not meant to be advice. I am just relating my experience. Like you, I've had a GT3 and have come back to the 993. I used to spend a lot of time on the track but a growing family and the commitments that go along with that have conspired to limit my track time for now. Also, and I don't know anything about the roads or speed limits in Finland or how you use your car, but here in Atlanta we have a lot of traffic and police making speeding a risky proposition. The GT3s are great cars but you really need to be on track to safely enjoy the performance and speed they offer. They really shine above 100 MPH. The 993 in near stock form, on the other hand, makes great sounds and is still pretty fun in the 60-80 MPH range. Every time I start to miss the power of a GT3, I remind myself why I like the 993 so much.
Some will read the above and say, "by that logic, a slower car should be even better." I've tried that route with a E30 M3. They are fun cars but, for me, a 993 offers modern looks, comfort and safety in an almost bulletproof package that is very user maintainable.
In any case, it sounds like you have a fun project that offers an opportunity to learn some interesting new skills. Good luck with it.
Hank
12-05-2011, 03:15 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hank, thanks for the words of wisdom. However what you didn't know was that my 993 is 95% track and 5% road use. I am also racing in the Endurance saloon series with the BMW which gives me the adreline rush I need. i.e. not much need for sprited drives on the public roads.
The speed limits are quite low here in Finland and what is the ridicilous part is that the fines are based on your salary so getting caught speeding is a big no no for me!!
I am pushing the 993 quite hard on track but 287hp only gets you so far.
I need more!!!
I know stripping weight to lower the lbs/hp ratio gives me better lap times than just adding equal amount of hp. But I just like the AC too much in the summer and it makes absolutely no sense to do anything else (than what is already done) if that stays on the car.
Maybe you will understand it better after I tell you what has already been done to the car:
Motec M600 engine management (310hp & 390Nm)
Re-geared box with steel syncroes
RS light weight flywheel + RSR pressure plate & clutch
Moton Club Sport suspension
LSD with Porsche motorsport parts
RS swaybars
Cargraphic 3rd oilcooler
RSR mufflers
DACH-X pipes with 200-cell metallic cats
RS Big reds with Performance friction 01 compound
Evo uprights
DAS sport rollbar
Sparco EVO2 seats
Scroth 6-point harness
Sparco 325 deep dish steering wheel
18x8 & 18x10” Kinesis K28 3-piece racing wheels + Hoosier slicks
18x8 & 18x10 Turbo hollow spoke wheels + R888
18x8 + 18x9.5” BBS Le Mans for street use
GT2 front splitters
3.8RSR rear wing
The speed limits are quite low here in Finland and what is the ridicilous part is that the fines are based on your salary so getting caught speeding is a big no no for me!!
I am pushing the 993 quite hard on track but 287hp only gets you so far.
I need more!!!
I know stripping weight to lower the lbs/hp ratio gives me better lap times than just adding equal amount of hp. But I just like the AC too much in the summer and it makes absolutely no sense to do anything else (than what is already done) if that stays on the car.
Maybe you will understand it better after I tell you what has already been done to the car:
Motec M600 engine management (310hp & 390Nm)
Re-geared box with steel syncroes
RS light weight flywheel + RSR pressure plate & clutch
Moton Club Sport suspension
LSD with Porsche motorsport parts
RS swaybars
Cargraphic 3rd oilcooler
RSR mufflers
DACH-X pipes with 200-cell metallic cats
RS Big reds with Performance friction 01 compound
Evo uprights
DAS sport rollbar
Sparco EVO2 seats
Scroth 6-point harness
Sparco 325 deep dish steering wheel
18x8 & 18x10” Kinesis K28 3-piece racing wheels + Hoosier slicks
18x8 & 18x10 Turbo hollow spoke wheels + R888
18x8 + 18x9.5” BBS Le Mans for street use
GT2 front splitters
3.8RSR rear wing
12-05-2011, 04:00 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Update.
So I decided on the supercharger route and placed the order with TPC about two weeks ago. My kit should be ready to ship sometime next week.
I will also purchase a methanol injection kit from Snow performance for added safety.
I had the car pass the annual inspection end of last month and put her into hibernation mode in my garage.
Tonight I raised her on the jackstands and will start tearing it apart during the weekend.
Project list for this winter is as follows:
1. Install TPC supercharger kit
2. Install snow performance methanol injection kit
3. Replace broken rear bumber (I have new one but not painted yet)
4. Install RS carpets
5. Install RS door panels and hardware
6. Replace driver seat upholstery
7. Remove dash, cover in alcantara and re-install
8. Remove brake calibers and rebuild
9. Remove Moton shocks, send to Moton for service
10. Replace all uniballs
11. New spark plugs
12. Change engine oil and filters
13. Change brake fluids
Should be fun...
Here she is on the stands, ready for the surgery:
My little helper:
Interior is in bad shape:
Have to get the racecar out of the way first:
Dude, there's no engine!!!
So I decided on the supercharger route and placed the order with TPC about two weeks ago. My kit should be ready to ship sometime next week.
I will also purchase a methanol injection kit from Snow performance for added safety.
I had the car pass the annual inspection end of last month and put her into hibernation mode in my garage.
Tonight I raised her on the jackstands and will start tearing it apart during the weekend.
Project list for this winter is as follows:
1. Install TPC supercharger kit
2. Install snow performance methanol injection kit
3. Replace broken rear bumber (I have new one but not painted yet)
4. Install RS carpets
5. Install RS door panels and hardware
6. Replace driver seat upholstery
7. Remove dash, cover in alcantara and re-install
8. Remove brake calibers and rebuild
9. Remove Moton shocks, send to Moton for service
10. Replace all uniballs
11. New spark plugs
12. Change engine oil and filters
13. Change brake fluids
Should be fun...
Here she is on the stands, ready for the surgery:
My little helper:
Interior is in bad shape:
Have to get the racecar out of the way first:
Dude, there's no engine!!!
12-05-2011, 05:39 PM
#13
Pro
I went and searched for a supercharged 993 on youtube. When I listened to the sound of the whine I couldn't help it but thought it's either a really really bad mic when it was recorded or it really sounds that whiny.
I kept looking for other recordings and they were all very similar.
I have never experienced one in real life but I don't think I'd like it.
Might be a point to consider before you buy one.
Of course there's nothing wrong with more power though.
Ed
I kept looking for other recordings and they were all very similar.
I have never experienced one in real life but I don't think I'd like it.
Might be a point to consider before you buy one.
Of course there's nothing wrong with more power though.
Ed
12-05-2011, 05:57 PM
#14
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