Does it make sense to do major upgrades for DEs
10-16-2011, 04:34 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does it make sense to do major upgrades for DEs
I know their are many ways to take this question and also that is ultimately up to the owner to decide what is right for them but I would like to hear some thoughts from this august grouping.
I like to run with the some of the more modern cars (997's) if possible, Gt3's if possible with my 993. Aside from driver talent, which I know is most important, is it really possible to make a 993 competitive. And if so is it at such a cost that its silly. By that I mean that even though I love my 993 it still seems questionable to spend $20-30k on upgrades to a $30k car when you could probably use that to get into a 997 or 996 GT3 and do better yet.
My car already has upgraded suspension and brakes but the newer cars are still easily faster. I am sometimes tempted to look into power upgrades (SC or 9M heads) but even if you could match their power would the inherent chassis and other deficiencies make parity a pipe dream?
What do you think? Would you just be satisfied where you are, upgrade a little, a lot or move to a different car. If you are an upgrader what do you reccommend?
(I ask this knowing some of you can run with the 'better' cars already. For you, how did you get there and are you tempted to move up?)
I like to run with the some of the more modern cars (997's) if possible, Gt3's if possible with my 993. Aside from driver talent, which I know is most important, is it really possible to make a 993 competitive. And if so is it at such a cost that its silly. By that I mean that even though I love my 993 it still seems questionable to spend $20-30k on upgrades to a $30k car when you could probably use that to get into a 997 or 996 GT3 and do better yet.
My car already has upgraded suspension and brakes but the newer cars are still easily faster. I am sometimes tempted to look into power upgrades (SC or 9M heads) but even if you could match their power would the inherent chassis and other deficiencies make parity a pipe dream?
What do you think? Would you just be satisfied where you are, upgrade a little, a lot or move to a different car. If you are an upgrader what do you reccommend?
(I ask this knowing some of you can run with the 'better' cars already. For you, how did you get there and are you tempted to move up?)
Last edited by Jim W; 10-16-2011 at 04:35 PM. Reason: spelling
10-16-2011, 04:45 PM
#2
Race Director
To me, trying to make the 993 competitive with newer GT cars is a fools errand. You end up with a car that is harder to sell, one that may not be enjoyable to drive on the street, and one which you've dumped 30k into.
I think you got two options, both of which involve selling your car. The first is a nicely modified 993 turbo. It will have enough power to hang with the newer cars, and you still get the feel that makes the 993 so enjoyable.
The other is if you can't beat um, join um and get a GT3 or similar.
If you just can't let yours go and money is no objective, have at the upgrades, but go into it with your eyes open.
I think you got two options, both of which involve selling your car. The first is a nicely modified 993 turbo. It will have enough power to hang with the newer cars, and you still get the feel that makes the 993 so enjoyable.
The other is if you can't beat um, join um and get a GT3 or similar.
If you just can't let yours go and money is no objective, have at the upgrades, but go into it with your eyes open.
10-16-2011, 05:14 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
If you want to go faster buy a faster car (preferably a purpose built race car). Modifying an older car will always be more expensive, more compromised for the street and more of a PITA. However, if you enjoy the process, go for it!
Just remember, Porsche will always be coming out with faster cars so the GT3 you buy now will be "slow" in a few years.
I have done both the modifying street cars to make them faster and the race car thing. Buying a purpose built race car is superior for many reasons in my book...
Just remember, Porsche will always be coming out with faster cars so the GT3 you buy now will be "slow" in a few years.
I have done both the modifying street cars to make them faster and the race car thing. Buying a purpose built race car is superior for many reasons in my book...
10-16-2011, 05:20 PM
#7
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Trending Topics
10-16-2011, 05:46 PM
#9
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Jim:
First, if by competitive you mean that you would be able to track down and pass a driver of equal talent in a 997 GT3, then, forget about it. That said, there are many variables that could change or affirm the first sentence. If you are talking about tracks like Road America, VIR, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Daytona and etc., generally considered power tracks then the first sentence stands. If you are talking about tighter tracks like Laguna Seca, Roebling Road, Mosport, Bridgehampton and etc., well, maybe.
I wouldn’t focus much on power because there isn’t much to get without spending a ton of money and significantly reducing longevity and reliability though a good set of cams can give you another 10-15 HP and eliminating the cats can give you another 8-10. I am not saying there is a cheap 25 HP in there but there is a cheap 15-18 HP in there. You’d need good headers to the last 7 or so.
I would focus almost all of my $$s on suspension and weight which will greatly reduce the streetability of the car. You need the best shocks you can afford—Motons or JRZs and a lot of suspension pieces to make the 993 more tunable. One you get into the higher spring rates like 1000-1300 lb. springs you are going to find that the car flexes significantly just behind the driver’s seat. You are going to need a real race engineer who understands that and can set the car up to work with that “feature.” You’ll also have to put the car on a serious diet. If you’re dedicated, you can find 500 lbs to trim but it will take some drastic measures.
Next you’ll need slicks to take full advantage of all that suspension and maximize your corner speed. You’ll also need a very good seat and harnesses if you don’t already have that.
If you do all of this you will have destroyed your once beautiful and fun street car. Some people find this fun—I did, at one time.
The other advice you’ve received is, however, much better. Buy a faster car. The 997 GT3 is amazing on the track almost straight out of the box with stock tires.
The 996GT3 is amazing on the track with great shocks and a little more spring than stock plus a few more suspension pieces—as good as a stock 997GT3 or better.
As you said, it’s up to you. You would never get your money out of a highly modified 993 but, for me, it comes down to what you think is fun.
Here is when you know you’ve gone too far: I had a track acquaintance that purchased a super tricked out 993 RSR that had been professionally built from a factory 993 RS. I know that car broke, sometimes in dramatic fashion, every time I saw him at the track. For me, that is taking the car too far and would not be anything other than frustrating.
Hopefully this was just another data point. In the long run, you just can’t beat the more modern Porsches for the money.
First, if by competitive you mean that you would be able to track down and pass a driver of equal talent in a 997 GT3, then, forget about it. That said, there are many variables that could change or affirm the first sentence. If you are talking about tracks like Road America, VIR, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Daytona and etc., generally considered power tracks then the first sentence stands. If you are talking about tighter tracks like Laguna Seca, Roebling Road, Mosport, Bridgehampton and etc., well, maybe.
I wouldn’t focus much on power because there isn’t much to get without spending a ton of money and significantly reducing longevity and reliability though a good set of cams can give you another 10-15 HP and eliminating the cats can give you another 8-10. I am not saying there is a cheap 25 HP in there but there is a cheap 15-18 HP in there. You’d need good headers to the last 7 or so.
I would focus almost all of my $$s on suspension and weight which will greatly reduce the streetability of the car. You need the best shocks you can afford—Motons or JRZs and a lot of suspension pieces to make the 993 more tunable. One you get into the higher spring rates like 1000-1300 lb. springs you are going to find that the car flexes significantly just behind the driver’s seat. You are going to need a real race engineer who understands that and can set the car up to work with that “feature.” You’ll also have to put the car on a serious diet. If you’re dedicated, you can find 500 lbs to trim but it will take some drastic measures.
Next you’ll need slicks to take full advantage of all that suspension and maximize your corner speed. You’ll also need a very good seat and harnesses if you don’t already have that.
If you do all of this you will have destroyed your once beautiful and fun street car. Some people find this fun—I did, at one time.
The other advice you’ve received is, however, much better. Buy a faster car. The 997 GT3 is amazing on the track almost straight out of the box with stock tires.
The 996GT3 is amazing on the track with great shocks and a little more spring than stock plus a few more suspension pieces—as good as a stock 997GT3 or better.
As you said, it’s up to you. You would never get your money out of a highly modified 993 but, for me, it comes down to what you think is fun.
Here is when you know you’ve gone too far: I had a track acquaintance that purchased a super tricked out 993 RSR that had been professionally built from a factory 993 RS. I know that car broke, sometimes in dramatic fashion, every time I saw him at the track. For me, that is taking the car too far and would not be anything other than frustrating.
Hopefully this was just another data point. In the long run, you just can’t beat the more modern Porsches for the money.
10-16-2011, 07:00 PM
#10
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all for the replies so far. Yeah Jeff I know the conventional answer, but there are aspects of the question that are worth exploring. I am interested in the diversity of views and experiences and the stories if any car to share.
DE is Drivers Education, non racing fast driving events on race tracks.
DE is Drivers Education, non racing fast driving events on race tracks.
10-16-2011, 07:02 PM
#11
Pro
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 661
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really good advice from Hank C. I read in an EVO mag that the 996 GT3 was like 10 secs faster than a 993 RS in a track in England, while the 7 GT3 was a couple of secs faster.
But if it was 9M's 4l black RS, then that would be a different picture.
IMO if you want to stay different then upgrade your 993. After upgrading my car's hp, I noticed that the suspension mods were a little lacking. I havent done the Guards lsd and sway bars yet. I think I have to get more width from it.
I wouldnt destroy the car by taking-off everything inside and making it super light. I would go all the way in the engine dept, like doing what 9M did, and suspension area.
Believe me, even if you dont pass 7 GT3s, you will have a very nice street car with GT3 owners coming up to you in the pits admiring what you did to your car.
But getting passed is also humbling no? Ahhh....hard decision.
BTW when the 991 GT3 comes out, the older GT3s will get cheaper.
But if it was 9M's 4l black RS, then that would be a different picture.
IMO if you want to stay different then upgrade your 993. After upgrading my car's hp, I noticed that the suspension mods were a little lacking. I havent done the Guards lsd and sway bars yet. I think I have to get more width from it.
I wouldnt destroy the car by taking-off everything inside and making it super light. I would go all the way in the engine dept, like doing what 9M did, and suspension area.
Believe me, even if you dont pass 7 GT3s, you will have a very nice street car with GT3 owners coming up to you in the pits admiring what you did to your car.
But getting passed is also humbling no? Ahhh....hard decision.
BTW when the 991 GT3 comes out, the older GT3s will get cheaper.
10-16-2011, 07:28 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Someone will always be a better driver and/or will have a faster car. I'd accept that reality for what it is. Want to win all of the DE races and be the king of red group? Keep on buying the latest and/or fastest Porsche.
If you really have a point to prove, start racing by buying the best car in your class, show that you're the top dog in your class and win everything in sight. PCA's GTC3 and GTC4 classes with the 996 and 997 GT3 cups have some deep talent, so to win in those ranks says something.
If you really have a point to prove, start racing by buying the best car in your class, show that you're the top dog in your class and win everything in sight. PCA's GTC3 and GTC4 classes with the 996 and 997 GT3 cups have some deep talent, so to win in those ranks says something.
10-16-2011, 07:48 PM
#13
Someone will always be a better driver and/or will have a faster car. I'd accept that reality for what it is. Want to win all of the DE races and be the king of red group? Keep on buying the latest and/or fastest Porsche.
If you really have a point to prove, start racing by buying the best car in your class, show that you're the top dog in your class and win everything in sight. PCA's GTC3 and GTC4 classes with the 996 and 997 GT3 cups have some deep talent, so to win in those ranks says something.
If you really have a point to prove, start racing by buying the best car in your class, show that you're the top dog in your class and win everything in sight. PCA's GTC3 and GTC4 classes with the 996 and 997 GT3 cups have some deep talent, so to win in those ranks says something.
10-16-2011, 08:19 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Welcome to one of the many North America-centric aspects of RL, Afrika. Unlike in the rest of the world track days in the US (and perhaps in Canada too) are termed "Drivers' Education" events. And there's a lot more than just a difference in nomenclature. DE's are strictly controlled by the Porsche Club of America region hosting the event. All cars must pass a tech inspection before the event. There's a rigid group system, usually named after colors. In the lowest group you can't participate without of of the region's instructors riding along with you. Then he, and I believe the Chief Instructor, have to approve you to drive solo. Then you're eligible to move up to Intermediate and then to Advanced. Very different than in ROW.