Terrible accident this morning in DC ... A Porsche is down
09-26-2010, 01:52 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
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I believe all exotics and low volume vehicles are not government tested. Likely because the govt doesn't have the time and resources to do testing for such an insiginificant percentage of auto sales. Doesn't mean that Porsche wouldn't exceed all safety requirements...just not tested by the govt.
I never said "not exempt from safety standards." If you read my post carefully I said "safety testing." As in crash test dummies...
Erik, thanks for the video. But I wish they would have shown the crash itself.....
09-26-2010, 04:16 AM
#17
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I believe all exotics and low volume vehicles are not government tested. Likely because the govt doesn't have the time and resources to do testing for such an insiginificant percentage of auto sales. Doesn't mean that Porsche wouldn't exceed all safety requirements...just not tested by the govt.
And there is this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJQ5aSXLBHs
and in this video it shows a part of a 993 crash test (at 3:02):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqIf-_0WQpI
09-26-2010, 04:34 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
All vehicles that are for sale in the US must go through extensive safety and crash tests. Its a requirement of the US Government and Department of Transportation to determine that a vehicle will meet federal safety and crash standards. It is one of the reasons that certain vehicles never make it state-side - the manufacturers build them in such limited numbers that giving one or two of them up for crash tests is not feasible. Only certain vehicles that qualify as a special or experimental build type vehicles receive exemption and they are certainly not vehicles that are mass-produced by a large automaker.
The thought process that a Porsche is not crash-tested by the US DOT and most certainly Porsche AG is ludicrous. They are most certainly crash tested over and over again to insure the highest of safety standards. Porsche's are built like mini-tanks to some degree. They often use higher-gauge steel in their build structures and panels.
Here is some info from the DOT's website: http://www.nhtsa.gov/Research/Defect...iness+Division
The thought process that a Porsche is not crash-tested by the US DOT and most certainly Porsche AG is ludicrous. They are most certainly crash tested over and over again to insure the highest of safety standards. Porsche's are built like mini-tanks to some degree. They often use higher-gauge steel in their build structures and panels.
Here is some info from the DOT's website: http://www.nhtsa.gov/Research/Defect...iness+Division
09-26-2010, 05:42 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
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All vehicles that are for sale in the US must go through extensive safety and crash tests. Its a requirement of the US Government and Department of Transportation to determine that a vehicle will meet federal safety and crash standards. It is one of the reasons that certain vehicles never make it state-side - the manufacturers build them in such limited numbers that giving one or two of them up for crash tests is not feasible. Only certain vehicles that qualify as a special or experimental build type vehicles receive exemption and they are certainly not vehicles that are mass-produced by a large automaker.
The thought process that a Porsche is not crash-tested by the US DOT and most certainly Porsche AG is ludicrous. They are most certainly crash tested over and over again to insure the highest of safety standards. Porsche's are built like mini-tanks to some degree. They often use higher-gauge steel in their build structures and panels.
Here is some info from the DOT's website: http://www.nhtsa.gov/Research/Defect...iness+Division
The thought process that a Porsche is not crash-tested by the US DOT and most certainly Porsche AG is ludicrous. They are most certainly crash tested over and over again to insure the highest of safety standards. Porsche's are built like mini-tanks to some degree. They often use higher-gauge steel in their build structures and panels.
Here is some info from the DOT's website: http://www.nhtsa.gov/Research/Defect...iness+Division
The top two YouTube videos say nothing. I have no idea where the first one comes from or what does it mean or what the results were. Sportbilen.se is some Swedish car enthusiast website. The Porsche one is simply a safety advertisement just like Mercedes and Volvo makes, etc..
Where's the Euro NCAP, NHTSA, IIHS data and tests? There are none.
My initial post was out of curiosity. I've sometimes wondered how these cars might fare in a bad accident. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that they have no safety equipment or don't fall under regulations, etc.. But there is no crash data posted on these cars (or any 911) like there is for Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc..
I'm not doubting these cars aren't well built and have safety features, but only curious as to how they actually fare in accidents.
EDIT: found some info on another gov't site. As we all know, cars that are imported have to follow DOT standards (headlamps, etc.) and EPA standards (emissions, etc..) NHTSA (safety) requires that cars be certified by their manufacturers as capable of withstanding 30-mph frontal and 33.5-mph side impacts.
The NHTSA and the IIHS do not test cars with the lowest production volume as long as the above criteria is met.
So we have to trust Porsche that the car is indeed safe. And I'm sure they are as safe as a good sports car can be without adding too much weight. However, just as food for thought, BMW crash tests their own cars too, and use the most current safety systems. But the e60 5 series was tested by the IIHS and it was discovered that internal injuries would most likely result in a side impact. The 5 series was rated as marginal in side impacts. BMW never changed anything during the e60's life cycle. But the new F10 5 series now has top ratings in side impacts.
Last edited by Canyon56; 09-26-2010 at 06:20 AM.
09-26-2010, 06:10 AM
#20
Then somebody point me to the results. Where's the crash test data? I looked at the above website (NHTSA) for a new Porsche 911 and it says: no data, not tested.
The top two YouTube videos say nothing. I have no idea where the first one comes from or what does it mean or what the results were. Sportbilen.se is some Swedish car enthusiast website. The Porsche one is simply a safety advertisement just like Mercedes and Volvo makes, etc..
Where's the Euro NCAP, NHTSA, IIHS data and tests? There are none.
My initial post was out of curiosity. I've sometimes wondered how these cars might fare in a bad accident. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that they have no safety equipment or don't fall under regulations, etc.. But there is no crash data posted on these cars (or any 911) like there is for Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc..
I'm not doubting these cars aren't well built and have safety features, but only curious as to how they actually fare in accidents.
The top two YouTube videos say nothing. I have no idea where the first one comes from or what does it mean or what the results were. Sportbilen.se is some Swedish car enthusiast website. The Porsche one is simply a safety advertisement just like Mercedes and Volvo makes, etc..
Where's the Euro NCAP, NHTSA, IIHS data and tests? There are none.
My initial post was out of curiosity. I've sometimes wondered how these cars might fare in a bad accident. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that they have no safety equipment or don't fall under regulations, etc.. But there is no crash data posted on these cars (or any 911) like there is for Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc..
I'm not doubting these cars aren't well built and have safety features, but only curious as to how they actually fare in accidents.
As you say, I've done a search and can't seem to find any safety data. I can only conclude that the figures exist but they have reserved the right to withhold it from the public (all we need to know is that the car is safe).
I would imagine that tests have been done, figures are known, and the government has a record of these figures and they are satisfied that the car is upto the required standard (and well in excess of what's required).
09-26-2010, 06:27 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
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Bouzouki, they don't exist because they haven't been tested. The only crash test data would be available internally from Porsche themselves. Whether or not the government requires that the data must be presented for export certification is something maybe an expert here can answer. I don't know if that's part of the safety certification process in order to satisfy the NHTSA requirements. It would be interesting to know.
09-26-2010, 08:59 AM
#22
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No Oblication to Share Crash Data
To put a finer point on this discussion, automakers AFAIK are required to certify that the vehicles offered for sale *would* meet the standards. In reality, most see this as a requirement to prove to themselves that their products *will* meet the standard, since safety is the #1 litgation-related and warranty-related cost driver for car makers. It would be foolish to do otherwise - the risks are too great.
The DOT tests cars on a sample basis only I believe. They do not test every car sold in America, nor is that their remit. If some issue arises from customers, then NHTSA gets involved and makes their own investigation, which often includes crash testing.
Trust me, they test. I have first-hand knowledge. They are under no obligation to share the results with anyone, and usually automakers keep all this secret for competitive reasons.
Mike
The DOT tests cars on a sample basis only I believe. They do not test every car sold in America, nor is that their remit. If some issue arises from customers, then NHTSA gets involved and makes their own investigation, which often includes crash testing.
Trust me, they test. I have first-hand knowledge. They are under no obligation to share the results with anyone, and usually automakers keep all this secret for competitive reasons.
Mike
09-26-2010, 09:13 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Sometimes I wonder about the safety of these cars. I normally don't think about it but when some yahoo pulls in front of me, or runs a red light, etc., I start to wonder.
Porsches are exempt from safety testing so we have no info there. I'm sure Porsche kept data on accidents and damage when the 993 was on the market. But we'll never see those details. Maybe they wrecked a few internally for their own data, but probably not (esp the 993s and during that era.)
Porsches are exempt from safety testing so we have no info there. I'm sure Porsche kept data on accidents and damage when the 993 was on the market. But we'll never see those details. Maybe they wrecked a few internally for their own data, but probably not (esp the 993s and during that era.)
...Not Porsche, not any automaker (kit makers excluded) who markets a car for sale in NA. All cars must pass DOT regulations for crash safety.
Porsche is a small maker by volume standards, but is fully committed to meeting applicable safety standards worldwide.
I remember one thing that particularly impressed me when I bought my '99 Boxster, was that the car met the existing roof crush standard - even though it didn't have a roof!
Mike
Porsche is a small maker by volume standards, but is fully committed to meeting applicable safety standards worldwide.
I remember one thing that particularly impressed me when I bought my '99 Boxster, was that the car met the existing roof crush standard - even though it didn't have a roof!
Mike
I'm no expert, but having followed the industry for over 30 years, there is simply no way that a mass-produced car is not tested for crash-worthiness.
09-26-2010, 05:57 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
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Cars can be tested internally but then we sometimes get different results on the public tests (the 5 series BMW is a case in point; and there are many other examples of this.) And if the tests are internal only, then consumers never see that data. And (according to Mike's post above) that data is kept internally.
But if all cars must meet certain criteria, and are crash tested internally, then why is it that some of those cars get bad ratings in the Euro NCAP, NHTSA, and IIHS tests? (that's a rhetorical question, btw
)We depend on internal data that's not going to be public. And sure, Porsche is going to try to be certain not to ever deliver an unsafe product. But in the end, we just have to either trust them or not (although that's why NHTSA, NCAP, and IIHS exist.)
But this wasn't my initial inquiry. I just wanted to know how the cars might fare in the real world and unfortunately we have no public testing data to be able to look at. That was all.
09-26-2010, 10:43 PM
#25
Racer
Taken from the NHTSA Document 49 CFR Part 575:
DaimlerChrysler and Porsche recommended that NHTSA permit a smaller label for vehicles with no ratings. NHTSA notes that it has never rated any Porsche vehicle, nor has it rated many Mercedes-Benz vehicles under NCAP. SAFETEA-LU states: “(h) if an automobile has not been tested by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under the New Car Assessment Program, or safety ratings for such automobile have not been assigned in one or more rating categories, a statement to that effect” must be provided on the safety rating label.
However, NHTSA also notes that vehicles manufactured in more than one stage (which are manufactured in relatively small volumes) have never been the subject of NCAP testing, which tests only those passenger vehicles that are sold in high volumes.
Porsche of course does their own testing. Don't be fooled into thinking the government test them, can't, too many cars, too little time and money.
DaimlerChrysler and Porsche recommended that NHTSA permit a smaller label for vehicles with no ratings. NHTSA notes that it has never rated any Porsche vehicle, nor has it rated many Mercedes-Benz vehicles under NCAP. SAFETEA-LU states: “(h) if an automobile has not been tested by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under the New Car Assessment Program, or safety ratings for such automobile have not been assigned in one or more rating categories, a statement to that effect” must be provided on the safety rating label.
However, NHTSA also notes that vehicles manufactured in more than one stage (which are manufactured in relatively small volumes) have never been the subject of NCAP testing, which tests only those passenger vehicles that are sold in high volumes.
Porsche of course does their own testing. Don't be fooled into thinking the government test them, can't, too many cars, too little time and money.
09-26-2010, 11:17 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
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Taken from the NHTSA Document 49 CFR Part 575:
DaimlerChrysler and Porsche recommended that NHTSA permit a smaller label for vehicles with no ratings. NHTSA notes that it has never rated any Porsche vehicle, nor has it rated many Mercedes-Benz vehicles under NCAP. SAFETEA-LU states: “(h) if an automobile has not been tested by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under the New Car Assessment Program, or safety ratings for such automobile have not been assigned in one or more rating categories, a statement to that effect” must be provided on the safety rating label.
However, NHTSA also notes that vehicles manufactured in more than one stage (which are manufactured in relatively small volumes) have never been the subject of NCAP testing, which tests only those passenger vehicles that are sold in high volumes.
Porsche of course does their own testing. Don't be fooled into thinking the government test them, can't, too many cars, too little time and money.
DaimlerChrysler and Porsche recommended that NHTSA permit a smaller label for vehicles with no ratings. NHTSA notes that it has never rated any Porsche vehicle, nor has it rated many Mercedes-Benz vehicles under NCAP. SAFETEA-LU states: “(h) if an automobile has not been tested by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under the New Car Assessment Program, or safety ratings for such automobile have not been assigned in one or more rating categories, a statement to that effect” must be provided on the safety rating label.
However, NHTSA also notes that vehicles manufactured in more than one stage (which are manufactured in relatively small volumes) have never been the subject of NCAP testing, which tests only those passenger vehicles that are sold in high volumes.
Porsche of course does their own testing. Don't be fooled into thinking the government test them, can't, too many cars, too little time and money.
09-27-2010, 01:07 AM
#28
Three Wheelin'
All cars sold in the US are tested, it's just that they aren't all tested by the Feds. There is a strict set of criteria that has to be met which, amoungst other things, deals with allowable amounts of intrusion into the passenger compartment in a simulated, controlled accident. All manufacturers must certify that their cars pass. For most foreign low volume manufacturers that certification is done by a third party (i.e MIRA does it in the UK for Aston Martin and Jaguar - at least now that Ford no longer owns them). To Canyon's point when the Feds test they usually also grade the cars, but when others test they usually just certify that the cars pass so they aren't graded. To say Porsches aren't "tested" is not correct. They, like all cars imported to the US are tested and pass our crash regs, they just aren't also graded - something the NHTSA does as part of its normal testing.
09-27-2010, 01:17 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
I think posting the data on crash tests to the public versus adhering to safety standards are too different things. It's not semantics. When cars are tested and the results made public (NHTSA, Euro NCAP, and IIHS) manufacturers even use those tests as part of their advertising that their cars are safer than others. And just like people use Consumer Reports, True Delta, and other websites (including forums) to determine potential reliability issues with models, they also look at crash test data before making a purchase.
Cars can be tested internally but then we sometimes get different results on the public tests (the 5 series BMW is a case in point; and there are many other examples of this.) And if the tests are internal only, then consumers never see that data. And (according to Mike's post above) that data is kept internally.
But if all cars must meet certain criteria, and are crash tested internally, then why is it that some of those cars get bad ratings in the Euro NCAP, NHTSA, and IIHS tests? (that's a rhetorical question, btw)
We depend on internal data that's not going to be public. And sure, Porsche is going to try to be certain not to ever deliver an unsafe product. But in the end, we just have to either trust them or not (although that's why NHTSA, NCAP, and IIHS exist.)
But this wasn't my initial inquiry. I just wanted to know how the cars might fare in the real world and unfortunately we have no public testing data to be able to look at. That was all.
Cars can be tested internally but then we sometimes get different results on the public tests (the 5 series BMW is a case in point; and there are many other examples of this.) And if the tests are internal only, then consumers never see that data. And (according to Mike's post above) that data is kept internally.
But if all cars must meet certain criteria, and are crash tested internally, then why is it that some of those cars get bad ratings in the Euro NCAP, NHTSA, and IIHS tests? (that's a rhetorical question, btw
)We depend on internal data that's not going to be public. And sure, Porsche is going to try to be certain not to ever deliver an unsafe product. But in the end, we just have to either trust them or not (although that's why NHTSA, NCAP, and IIHS exist.)
But this wasn't my initial inquiry. I just wanted to know how the cars might fare in the real world and unfortunately we have no public testing data to be able to look at. That was all.
09-27-2010, 02:31 AM
#30
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The information is probably considered propritary to Porsche and would not be released to the general public. In this case the government regularitory agencies would not release the information. However, Porsche as all other manufactures must submit testing data based on the standards established by NHTSA and other governing bodies. The government evaluates the data provided by the manufacturer to ensure that the standards are met. If they are met a certification would be issued to the manufacturer. Should an incident occur (Accident) that brings into question the integrity of their testing I'm sure that the follow-on government investigations into their methods and processes would be evaluated and if found negligent hefty fines will be imposed by the government and mandatory vehicle recalls at a cost to the manufacturer. The government does not have the internal resources to test each and every model of vehices built, but does rely on third party follow on testing and evaluation data. Unfortunately, the government only reacts when problems arise that are considered a danger to public safety.