This thread gave me a nervous tick.
09-25-2010, 10:43 AM
#121
Rennlist Member
tjeff,
As David in LA wrote, if the market is flooded with 993's, why is it so hard for you to find a 993? You've paid for three PPI's but none of them have panned out. I don't think you're doing enough due diligence and are not properly vetting the cars prior to having a PPI done.
When I bought my 993 way back in 2002, I looked at three local cars (all located in Washington, DC or Bethesda, MD), none of which I was too keen on. I considered a polar silver/nephrite green 1995 993 in Georgia but couldn't come to terms with the interior color. I found a '95 polar silver/black 993 in Oklahoma at a high-line dealer. I asked that dealer every single question imaginable and had him walk up and down the car while I had him on the phone looking at everything that I asked. When it passed that level of scrutiny, I then paid for a PPI, which revealed a noisy spoiler wall bearing that the seller replaced. When I flew down there, the car was exactly as the seller had disclosed and met my expectations. I've been the happy owner of that car ever since and have raced/tracked the crap out of it for eight years.
I won't bore you with the similar story with my '02 Miata, but suffice to say that I looked at one or two local cars and then pulled the trigger on my current one. Easy-peasy.
Methinks that instead of bitching about having to pay for $1,000 in PPI's, you might want to re-consider your vetting approach. It's really not that hard.
As David in LA wrote, if the market is flooded with 993's, why is it so hard for you to find a 993? You've paid for three PPI's but none of them have panned out. I don't think you're doing enough due diligence and are not properly vetting the cars prior to having a PPI done.
When I bought my 993 way back in 2002, I looked at three local cars (all located in Washington, DC or Bethesda, MD), none of which I was too keen on. I considered a polar silver/nephrite green 1995 993 in Georgia but couldn't come to terms with the interior color. I found a '95 polar silver/black 993 in Oklahoma at a high-line dealer. I asked that dealer every single question imaginable and had him walk up and down the car while I had him on the phone looking at everything that I asked. When it passed that level of scrutiny, I then paid for a PPI, which revealed a noisy spoiler wall bearing that the seller replaced. When I flew down there, the car was exactly as the seller had disclosed and met my expectations. I've been the happy owner of that car ever since and have raced/tracked the crap out of it for eight years.
I won't bore you with the similar story with my '02 Miata, but suffice to say that I looked at one or two local cars and then pulled the trigger on my current one. Easy-peasy.
Methinks that instead of bitching about having to pay for $1,000 in PPI's, you might want to re-consider your vetting approach. It's really not that hard.
09-25-2010, 10:46 AM
#122
Why do I feel so left out!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
^^^^^^^ + 993
09-25-2010, 11:19 AM
#123
Rennlist Member
And at that point the car will definitely not be a worry...you'll have to sell it along with the rest of your toys as part of the settlement. Ask some of my friends and co-workers.
09-25-2010, 12:38 PM
#124
Nordschleife Master
If I'm selling my car, & a PROSPECTIVE buyer asks me to pay for a PPI, I will say no, maybe if you put a $1000 deposit on the car first. I need to know you are serious, & not just wasting my time. People see PORSCHE for sale, & just want to take it for a joy ride, & waste your time. If you are out of state, then I have to drive to the PPI wait, & then drive home. That's commitment on my part.
Also, a PPI is a AWESOME thing, it's a TOOL! Use it. When I had the C4S done, I asked my shop to be super picky, & find everything they can. They found a few codes, CCU, MAF, & some others, turns out it was from running the battery down, & my Tech told me that. Then we found poor hood shocks, & some other little things. I then had him write up an estimate on the "repair" of all the things found.
Back to the dealer, I showed him the PPI, told him the car needed work. He took $3k off the asking price. That was worth my $200 PPI, & best of all, the only thing wrong with my car, was a passenger side hood shock, I replaced both for $40 & 30min of my time.
On my C4, my Tech found it for me, after he did 2 PPI's on failed cars. I didn't get a PPI done on that car. As he was the one who worked on it for over 10 years. He told me if there is anything wrong with the car, he would fix it him self, due to the superb condition it was in. The car also happened to be $10k more then I wanted to spend. But was money well spent on an excellent car.
Look for higher end cars, & find people who know & love the car. It will help, picking one up form a dentist who got it for fun, & changes the oil once every 5 years is not the car to get. There easy to pick out on the phone. A lot of these kind of cars seam to be in California & other warm weather higher affluence places. Ask a couple of simple questions, like how often is it driven, do they let the battery go flat. Do they do yearly oil changes, do they know about the yearly oil change? Do they change both filters? Do they ever get the car detailed? What do they use the car for? If things do pop up, do they get it fixed, or let it go?
If you are getting PPI's done on $25K 993 & are disappointed, you will never be happy. They will need work, that's why they are $25k. Start looking @ $30k + cars.
Also, a PPI is a AWESOME thing, it's a TOOL! Use it. When I had the C4S done, I asked my shop to be super picky, & find everything they can. They found a few codes, CCU, MAF, & some others, turns out it was from running the battery down, & my Tech told me that. Then we found poor hood shocks, & some other little things. I then had him write up an estimate on the "repair" of all the things found.
Back to the dealer, I showed him the PPI, told him the car needed work. He took $3k off the asking price. That was worth my $200 PPI, & best of all, the only thing wrong with my car, was a passenger side hood shock, I replaced both for $40 & 30min of my time.
On my C4, my Tech found it for me, after he did 2 PPI's on failed cars. I didn't get a PPI done on that car. As he was the one who worked on it for over 10 years. He told me if there is anything wrong with the car, he would fix it him self, due to the superb condition it was in. The car also happened to be $10k more then I wanted to spend. But was money well spent on an excellent car.
Look for higher end cars, & find people who know & love the car. It will help, picking one up form a dentist who got it for fun, & changes the oil once every 5 years is not the car to get. There easy to pick out on the phone. A lot of these kind of cars seam to be in California & other warm weather higher affluence places. Ask a couple of simple questions, like how often is it driven, do they let the battery go flat. Do they do yearly oil changes, do they know about the yearly oil change? Do they change both filters? Do they ever get the car detailed? What do they use the car for? If things do pop up, do they get it fixed, or let it go?
If you are getting PPI's done on $25K 993 & are disappointed, you will never be happy. They will need work, that's why they are $25k. Start looking @ $30k + cars.
09-25-2010, 12:43 PM
#125
The guy's been here all of a month, and less than 50 posts, and he's managed to alienate himself to most of the active members of this board; members that could have been an invaluable source for helping him find his 993.
I think his skewed logic about PPIs is consistent with lots of poor choices he seems to make.
I think his skewed logic about PPIs is consistent with lots of poor choices he seems to make.
09-25-2010, 01:51 PM
#127
all flaming aside tjeff993 (and ignoring whether i think you deserve it), id highly suggest getting your own ppi AND getting it from a shop you personally know and trust. i had one of the largest porsche dealers do a PPI on my 993 c4s i got 6 mos ago, they found about $300 of work that needed to be done, thats it. after i bought the car, i took it to a local independent shop in CT before i tracked the car, and they found $8,000 of work that was needed, right down to cracked dry rot ignition wires to a huge bubble in the rear tire to control arms that were half worn through from being mounted wrong, and the list went on and on. i had the shop keep all the old parts for me to inspect to make sure i believed it actually needed this work. for me, it was money well spent to get the car to flawless shape as i will keep it for life, but hell, that dealer should have found some of that sh*t other than a tranny leak, valve cover leak, and missing plastic cover in the boot compartment. if i cant trust a porsche dealer PPI commisioned by ME, i sure as hell wont trust one sponsored by the seller. by the way, in business, whenever you are selling a company or other asset, buyer is expected to pay for their own diligence. i get that it might differentiate a seller, that is a reasonable point, but to be honest, i WOULD NOT trust a seller PPI, heck i dont even trust a sellers carfax, i run MY OWN. thats the only thing i trust. and by the way, even though i own one 911, i am always looking for a great deal on a cool car, so always looking to buy, so just a perspective from a current buyer in the market. and trust me, i looked for a year for my 993 c4s. there may be a lot of 993s in the market (relatively speaking), but 75% of them are beat up crap, if you want a cherry, those are few and far between, and most of them are on this list as members. just a random stream of thought....
09-25-2010, 02:21 PM
#128
Race Director
even with a clean PPI, you can end up having to spend at least $3k to fix stuff and make things "right".
3 hours of looking over a car cannot identify everything OWNING a car for 3 months will. Major stuff, sure. Minor stuff, no way.
3 hours of looking over a car cannot identify everything OWNING a car for 3 months will. Major stuff, sure. Minor stuff, no way.
09-25-2010, 02:25 PM
#129
Rennlist Member
I think he should buy a 'cheap' Ferrari and park it in his garage. He can spend days scouring eBay for the perfect Ferrari posters, knick-knacks, baseball caps, jackets, and t-shirts. Then he can have his friend over and they can fondle each other whilst appreciating the svelte lines of the underappreciated Mondial.
The Mondial won't have any mileage on it (who the f*ck would want to be seen in it?) and hence will be 'perfect' (the previous owner will gladly have paid for the PPi to get it out of his garage).
I sense he's more of a Ferrari guy. Just a guess.
The Mondial won't have any mileage on it (who the f*ck would want to be seen in it?) and hence will be 'perfect' (the previous owner will gladly have paid for the PPi to get it out of his garage).
I sense he's more of a Ferrari guy. Just a guess.
Last edited by jdistefa; 09-25-2010 at 02:40 PM.
09-25-2010, 02:28 PM
#130
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB
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Caveat emptor.
Basically, look out for your own damn self. Why do so many people in this era require others to do this for them? Be a little proactive and responsible for your own interests.
Basically, look out for your own damn self. Why do so many people in this era require others to do this for them? Be a little proactive and responsible for your own interests.
09-25-2010, 03:55 PM
#132
Instructor
Join Date: Sep 2002
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I've been an off and on lurker here for awhile and this is the first subject that I feel my input would offer some value.
I recently bought a black on black, 98 C2S. I went through a circular process of originally looking for a nice 993 got seduced by a 996 GT3, started looking at 996TTs, 993TTs, back to GT3s and finally bought the 993. Looked at a bunch of cars, drove several and even did a couple PPIs. From what I experienced there's not quite a flood of 993s. 997s and 996s are somewhat of a different matter.
Two terms come to mind with regard to tjeff's original thread; caveat emptor and caveat venditor.
Caveat emptor basically means that we, as buyers need to exercise prudent measures to ensure that what we are buying is as portrayed by the seller. A PPI would very likely be considered prudent and advisable when buying a relatively expensive car. In addition, a PPI is also a great way to negotiate with the seller using arguments based on the results of the PPI.
Caveat venditor to me is the burden of the seller to truthfully portray the item to be sold. This can get complicated with cars due to multiple owners, the complexity of cars in general and potentially the sellers inability to communicate or understand the details relating to the condition of the car.
A thorough PPI by a subject matter expert can help you understand the condition of the car and make a clearer determination of the car's value and lead to a successful negotiation. Or, on the other hand the PPI can help you run from a car that exceeds your appetite for hassle and cost.
I recently bought a black on black, 98 C2S. I went through a circular process of originally looking for a nice 993 got seduced by a 996 GT3, started looking at 996TTs, 993TTs, back to GT3s and finally bought the 993. Looked at a bunch of cars, drove several and even did a couple PPIs. From what I experienced there's not quite a flood of 993s. 997s and 996s are somewhat of a different matter.
Two terms come to mind with regard to tjeff's original thread; caveat emptor and caveat venditor.
Caveat emptor basically means that we, as buyers need to exercise prudent measures to ensure that what we are buying is as portrayed by the seller. A PPI would very likely be considered prudent and advisable when buying a relatively expensive car. In addition, a PPI is also a great way to negotiate with the seller using arguments based on the results of the PPI.
Caveat venditor to me is the burden of the seller to truthfully portray the item to be sold. This can get complicated with cars due to multiple owners, the complexity of cars in general and potentially the sellers inability to communicate or understand the details relating to the condition of the car.
A thorough PPI by a subject matter expert can help you understand the condition of the car and make a clearer determination of the car's value and lead to a successful negotiation. Or, on the other hand the PPI can help you run from a car that exceeds your appetite for hassle and cost.
09-26-2010, 02:06 AM
#133
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
This thread is awesome! Thanks for the laughs !
Suddenly the guy who purchased my 996tt seems a lot nicer.
Good luck tjeff993! My $0.02 is that you would be better off with a 997 and add a CPO warranty. A older 993 is not for you.
Suddenly the guy who purchased my 996tt seems a lot nicer.
Good luck tjeff993! My $0.02 is that you would be better off with a 997 and add a CPO warranty. A older 993 is not for you.
09-26-2010, 02:48 AM
#135
Three Wheelin'
