9M build
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no idea, the old pump tested fine according to the workshop manual.
could be the old pump had trouble regulating flow or the check valve was dying.
installing a fuel pressure gauge to see why the afr's run so rich during full throttle was almost as expensive as a new pump.
so it made sense to just install a new pump.
could be the old pump had trouble regulating flow or the check valve was dying.
installing a fuel pressure gauge to see why the afr's run so rich during full throttle was almost as expensive as a new pump.
so it made sense to just install a new pump.
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From: Philly
The above is essentially a summary as to why I'll be buying a Motec prior to spending big money on heads/cams. Colin's posted many times about the power gains to be had from a proper header and a Motec system (and in the 964's case, bigger injectors.) I'd suggest going that route ASAP. Seems like a real pain to tune such a developed motor on the OEM chip. One question; was their hesitation to give you the map for similar setups due to the difference in fuel, or another reason? Regardless, I'm sure your car is a blast to drive.
Last edited by tjb616; Aug 7, 2020 at 11:41 AM.
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I never got an answer about the map 9m uses, asked a bunch but no answer.
sad because if 9m would release the map to GIAC any of us could have the ecu flashed, GIAC dealers are all over the country.
while motec would be great, I did get a quote and it was silly.
shop said to assume 20 grand after harness, install and tuning. it cost me less than that to rebuild my engine.
rasant sell a kit with harness for 6 to 7.5 grand, maybe at some point I will figure it out.
and keep in mind there are no problems or issues with my engine.
if the original dynojet shop hadn't give me incorrect information about the afr numbers I never would have gone thru the process of
figuring out the afr and/or replacing the fuel pump.
or if this was a street car or if I had paid someone else to rebuild the engine there would have been one or two posts about
shop X rebuilding my engine, goes very fast between stop lights, yada yada yada.
I post this stuff so in the distant future if someone else goes through this they can look up the info and not have to go to the same trouble.
like now everyone knows to ignore dynojet afr data,
or maybe decide changing the fuel pump is one of those while you're in there kind of things.
I still use tons of info on rennlist posted by people over 10yrs ago.
sad because if 9m would release the map to GIAC any of us could have the ecu flashed, GIAC dealers are all over the country.
while motec would be great, I did get a quote and it was silly.
shop said to assume 20 grand after harness, install and tuning. it cost me less than that to rebuild my engine.
rasant sell a kit with harness for 6 to 7.5 grand, maybe at some point I will figure it out.
and keep in mind there are no problems or issues with my engine.
if the original dynojet shop hadn't give me incorrect information about the afr numbers I never would have gone thru the process of
figuring out the afr and/or replacing the fuel pump.
or if this was a street car or if I had paid someone else to rebuild the engine there would have been one or two posts about
shop X rebuilding my engine, goes very fast between stop lights, yada yada yada.
I post this stuff so in the distant future if someone else goes through this they can look up the info and not have to go to the same trouble.
like now everyone knows to ignore dynojet afr data,
or maybe decide changing the fuel pump is one of those while you're in there kind of things.
I still use tons of info on rennlist posted by people over 10yrs ago.
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From: Philly
I appreciate you sharing it. Yes Motec is ungodly expensive, but getting HP out of these motors is principally an expensive venture. There are options from AEM and others. But until they're adopted by the best tuners, their value is limited. I do hope the Ransant kit gets some legs and is developed and proven. It sounds like it's headed in the right direction.
Regarding the Dynojet AFR, I'd say that is the responsibility of the tuner to know and account for as they're one of the most common dynos in the US. Although I am admittedly skeptical about all Dynojets being "wrong" on AFR and this not being common knowledge.
Regarding the Dynojet AFR, I'd say that is the responsibility of the tuner to know and account for as they're one of the most common dynos in the US. Although I am admittedly skeptical about all Dynojets being "wrong" on AFR and this not being common knowledge.
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 835
Likes: 60
My '95 is under the knife right now going to 3.8 and adding 9M Heads, Cams, Valves/Springs and Rods, and Motec. Also doing all the bottom end goodies. With all the money in parts that breath better I really wanted the ability to tune it perfectly. Anxious to see the results.
Last edited by slvr993; Aug 7, 2020 at 08:19 PM.
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From: Flyoverland - Central, Ohio
A fuel pump pressure will be relative to voltage, so a drop in voltage will be reflected in lower pressure from the pump, but it should be balanced by the return regulator if working.
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Motec is pricy- I bought Colins kit 964 which comes loaded with the map for the 3.8/schrick cam combo. My thought was that the cost of the motec hardware is at offset by the cost of the time 9m has put in to fine tuning the map. I don't have access to a tuner that I trust and I'm not only interested in WOT tuning (which I could do myself anyway)- its the part throttle stuff that really takes the time to get right. Colin has hours upon hours of his time invested in the map and its the key to making his kit- his kit- so I'm not surprised that he doesn't want to give it away to be copied. I had a used set of 964 heads ported by Colin.
My 9m 3.8 build is glacial at this point. Living vicariously though you guys! Will post up someday when I get it all together and can get a decent dyno run. My car is primarily a street car with some DE's at Suzuka. Should be a hoot.
Pete
My 9m 3.8 build is glacial at this point. Living vicariously though you guys! Will post up someday when I get it all together and can get a decent dyno run. My car is primarily a street car with some DE's at Suzuka. Should be a hoot.
Pete
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From: Philly
So the reason they offered you, Pete, the map but not the OP, is because you bought the cams, cats, and and flywheel from 9M, but he did not buy the complete package, only the heads? Unfortunate, but it's fairly common practice. The lesson learned is the same. Figure out your tuner first, then design your build on their advice.
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 835
Likes: 60
[QUOTE=k722070;16828868]I
while motec would be great, I did get a quote and it was silly.
shop said to assume 20 grand after harness, install and tuning.
If someone quoted you $20K - they just didn't want the job. Motec is expensive, but it's not that expensive.
while motec would be great, I did get a quote and it was silly.
shop said to assume 20 grand after harness, install and tuning.
If someone quoted you $20K - they just didn't want the job. Motec is expensive, but it's not that expensive.
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not the OP, but 9m included the price of the ecu flash when I first inquired.
before paying 9m the flash price was removed and I was led along for a few months being told it could be done.
after that emails went unanswered.
I paid FVD almost 3x the price 9m quoted to have the ecu flashed for the cams.
and I wasn't suggesting 9m give away anything.
they seem to have issues with delivery and communication.
selling the map thru GIAC would solve those problems.
even if GIAC doubled 9m's price it would still be cheaper(and much easier) than what I ended up paying.
before paying 9m the flash price was removed and I was led along for a few months being told it could be done.
after that emails went unanswered.
I paid FVD almost 3x the price 9m quoted to have the ecu flashed for the cams.
and I wasn't suggesting 9m give away anything.
they seem to have issues with delivery and communication.
selling the map thru GIAC would solve those problems.
even if GIAC doubled 9m's price it would still be cheaper(and much easier) than what I ended up paying.
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,854
Likes: 364
So the reason they offered you, Pete, the map but not the OP, is because you bought the cams, cats, and and flywheel from 9M, but he did not buy the complete package, only the heads? Unfortunate, but it's fairly common practice. The lesson learned is the same. Figure out your tuner first, then design your build on their advice.
not the OP, but 9m included the price of the ecu flash when I first inquired.
before paying 9m the flash price was removed and I was led along for a few months being told it could be done.
after that emails went unanswered.
I paid FVD almost 3x the price 9m quoted to have the ecu flashed for the cams.
and I wasn't suggesting 9m give away anything.
they seem to have issues with delivery and communication.
selling the map thru GIAC would solve those problems.
even if GIAC doubled 9m's price it would still be cheaper(and much easier) than what I ended up paying.
before paying 9m the flash price was removed and I was led along for a few months being told it could be done.
after that emails went unanswered.
I paid FVD almost 3x the price 9m quoted to have the ecu flashed for the cams.
and I wasn't suggesting 9m give away anything.
they seem to have issues with delivery and communication.
selling the map thru GIAC would solve those problems.
even if GIAC doubled 9m's price it would still be cheaper(and much easier) than what I ended up paying.
I get it and now that you say you were expecting the map as part of the hardware sale it makes it all makes sense. And I have also had a bit of a struggle reaching Colin via email. I found in my case that a call often gets everything and more worked out but being in Japan with the time difference its not very convenient to have to do so. I had no delivery issues but do feel that they might consider a dedicated support staffer for their aftermarket parts. I bought the MOtec with a map preloaded or else I wouldn't have gone this route.
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From: Earth
I don’t understand why this has to be such a struggle to tune. It’s not really that wild of a build. I know your hands were tied a bit with sending your ECU stateside though.
If anyone else in the US goes down this road I can offer up two great resources. Chris at Turbo Kraft for Motec harnesses and tuning. If sticking with 97 reflashable Bosch use Todd at Protomotive. He’s got great base maps but they still require you to data log some parameters to confirm all is well. If not he’ll recalibrate and you’ll go through the procedure again. It took me 3 or 4 recalibration (10+ years ago I forget) to nail down perfectly. My combo is quite wild though being a turbo conversion with blow through MAF, cams and 60lb injectors.
I’d also consider another ECU if I had complete faith in the tuner. I am sitting on a life’s racing (aka syvecs) f88 ECU. The hardware is spectacular! I got someone I trust who can tune it. That’s something that could happen next.
I also have a Motec M800 (loaded with options) with CDI box I’d sell for cheap if someone want to take that on.
If anyone else in the US goes down this road I can offer up two great resources. Chris at Turbo Kraft for Motec harnesses and tuning. If sticking with 97 reflashable Bosch use Todd at Protomotive. He’s got great base maps but they still require you to data log some parameters to confirm all is well. If not he’ll recalibrate and you’ll go through the procedure again. It took me 3 or 4 recalibration (10+ years ago I forget) to nail down perfectly. My combo is quite wild though being a turbo conversion with blow through MAF, cams and 60lb injectors.
I’d also consider another ECU if I had complete faith in the tuner. I am sitting on a life’s racing (aka syvecs) f88 ECU. The hardware is spectacular! I got someone I trust who can tune it. That’s something that could happen next.
I also have a Motec M800 (loaded with options) with CDI box I’d sell for cheap if someone want to take that on.
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The problem with tuning the US OBDII cars is that the '96 ECU can't really be messed with, and while the '97-'98 ECU's have flashable chips, the chips are soldered to the circuit board. So first you have to de-solder it, install a socket (so it can be R&R'd like an OBD1 chip), and then you can live map it. If you just want to swap chips, you can skip the socket but you still have to de-solder and re-solder, and these are something like 64-pin chips. It's a big job, and afterwards you're still left with the tuning limitations of the 90's Motronic system. So it's not crazy to go to Motec. We in the US really got screwed by the gummint, the Euro 993's used OBD1 throughout.
