Help! Tempted to buy a 964 instead of a 993!
01-26-2010, 12:09 AM
#46
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Having owned both, both are great cars. The 993 has a little more power and the advantage of more modern drive lines.
Both have their mechanical issues. The 964 had its clutch, weeping cylinder leaks, rotting dual distributor belts, and a host of electrical gremlins with the engine management computer. I pretty much had everything that can go wrong with the 964 go wrong. However, most of those issues will likely have ben addressed by the previous owners, but you should check.
I notice a lot of talk about suspension advances with the 993. It is true the 993 is better, but since you are considering a Cab, that element of the car is probably not going to make much of a difference for you. I would say suspension is not going to be a deciding factor.
If it boils down to looks, the 964 has a more classic look, but the plastic add-ons at the rocker panels will look just like that, add-ons, in my opinion. The 993 did a better job with integrating the looks and panels. At least the 993 is cleaner looking.
964 will be a little more maintenance and valves need regular service. The 993 will probably eat more of your tire budget and there is the issue with clogged SAI ports. The '96 and later cars will flag a fault, whereas the '95 does not when those ports clog.
Both have their mechanical issues. The 964 had its clutch, weeping cylinder leaks, rotting dual distributor belts, and a host of electrical gremlins with the engine management computer. I pretty much had everything that can go wrong with the 964 go wrong. However, most of those issues will likely have ben addressed by the previous owners, but you should check.
I notice a lot of talk about suspension advances with the 993. It is true the 993 is better, but since you are considering a Cab, that element of the car is probably not going to make much of a difference for you. I would say suspension is not going to be a deciding factor.
If it boils down to looks, the 964 has a more classic look, but the plastic add-ons at the rocker panels will look just like that, add-ons, in my opinion. The 993 did a better job with integrating the looks and panels. At least the 993 is cleaner looking.
964 will be a little more maintenance and valves need regular service. The 993 will probably eat more of your tire budget and there is the issue with clogged SAI ports. The '96 and later cars will flag a fault, whereas the '95 does not when those ports clog.
01-26-2010, 01:33 AM
#47
Then please illustrate how. Each generation FEELS better, even in "sporting" street driving. We can even call a 993 most forgiving, in reference to the "better on a bumpy road" comment above. But when it comes down to running flat out, and any notion of having better drivability or grip? I just don't see it in the data. Both are equally comfortable at the limit. I've competed (time trial or wheel to wheel) in every air cooled generation of 911 since 1981. And anyone can look at 15 years of club racing results to see what some very advanced and talented amateurs can wring out of each platform.
Now, if you or anyone, thinks you are running the car at the max on the street, I'll just quit participating in the conversation. Say I can run 2:10 (Thunderhill, full), 1:45 (Laguna), or 1:54 (Sears) in the C4S. If those were public roads, my pace would likely be 2:30, 2:00 and 2:10. If not slower. Those are little more than behind-the-pace-car laps running wheel-to-wheel.
Now, if you or anyone, thinks you are running the car at the max on the street, I'll just quit participating in the conversation. Say I can run 2:10 (Thunderhill, full), 1:45 (Laguna), or 1:54 (Sears) in the C4S. If those were public roads, my pace would likely be 2:30, 2:00 and 2:10. If not slower. Those are little more than behind-the-pace-car laps running wheel-to-wheel.
Anyway, it's not likely we will any of us will change our minds. But the debate is fun
Cheers,
Joe
01-26-2010, 05:27 AM
#50
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I have a 1989 964 for the last ten years an I have never had anything big go bad on it. I live in Tahoe an I drive it all year. Also I have a 1964 933 Cab. for the last two plus years an I love this car it is so nice to drive. If you drive these cars a lot they really last an they really are happy, if they sit a lot thats when they start to cost you a lot of money to fix. Vernon.
01-26-2010, 09:54 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
01-26-2010, 10:18 AM
#52
Crap, I wrote a long reply ab0out my experiences with a 3.2, 964 and 993 and lost it.
In summary: I would be happy with any of them in good condition. Biggest diff is no PS in 3.2 and looks. All seemed to me to behave similarly at the limit. I think the 993 is the best looking of them, but I really like the "bazooka tubes" from the driver's seat.
To paraphrase a saying from my Jeep days: "Real Porsche are built, not bought"
In summary: I would be happy with any of them in good condition. Biggest diff is no PS in 3.2 and looks. All seemed to me to behave similarly at the limit. I think the 993 is the best looking of them, but I really like the "bazooka tubes" from the driver's seat.
To paraphrase a saying from my Jeep days: "Real Porsche are built, not bought"
01-26-2010, 01:58 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Ken (and others), please keep in mind that my perspective is that of one who uses the car on the street. These are street cars, right? I personally, don't give a cr*p about which times each will turn on the track. Frankly, there are more than a few cars that will pulverize our little 911s on the track (like the one in your avatar or a garden variety Corvette). However, and as you note, one of the advantages of the LSA is that it makes the 993 more forgiving on bumpy roads. There are lots of bumpy roads in the real world, yes? Because, the LSA is more forgiving and flexible, Porsche engineers could make the car more neutral than its semi trailing arm predecessors. And they did.
Anyway, it's not likely we will any of us will change our minds. But the debate is fun
Cheers,
Joe
Anyway, it's not likely we will any of us will change our minds. But the debate is fun
Cheers,
Joe
And interest in track driving or not, until you can poke around your car's limits in a controlled environment, you're just rolling the dice when driving on the street at pretty much any pace quicker than what you can do with a generic Accord or Camry.
01-26-2010, 03:00 PM
#54
Agent Orange
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I'll give you my opinion FWIW, being that I switched to a 993 after owning 2 964s.
Yes, the 993 is a little more comfy than the 964. Yes, it's more expensive. The thing that I really like about the 993 is that it's a 964 that the designers spent a few more years improving on. The 964 was 85% different than the 3.2 Carrera. And it took a little bit to work out the kinks. And that was the 993. Not so much a new car (except the body), but an improved one.
After spending a significant amount of time under the 2 964s that I've owned and then a small amount of time under the 993, I am constantly amazed at all the little improvements the factory did. And the modern parts they used. For some reason it looks to me that the 964 uses a lot of parts that were found in my 944 turbo. The 993 uses a lot of parts that are found in my Audi. From clips and fasteners, to headlight connectors, etc. The 993 is just a more modern looking car. Now you may like this or you may not. At this stage of my life I happen to like it.
The only thing that I don't like about the US 993 is the gearing. And I believe I'm not the only one.
Bottom line - drive both and decide.
Yes, the 993 is a little more comfy than the 964. Yes, it's more expensive. The thing that I really like about the 993 is that it's a 964 that the designers spent a few more years improving on. The 964 was 85% different than the 3.2 Carrera. And it took a little bit to work out the kinks. And that was the 993. Not so much a new car (except the body), but an improved one.
After spending a significant amount of time under the 2 964s that I've owned and then a small amount of time under the 993, I am constantly amazed at all the little improvements the factory did. And the modern parts they used. For some reason it looks to me that the 964 uses a lot of parts that were found in my 944 turbo. The 993 uses a lot of parts that are found in my Audi. From clips and fasteners, to headlight connectors, etc. The 993 is just a more modern looking car. Now you may like this or you may not. At this stage of my life I happen to like it.
The only thing that I don't like about the US 993 is the gearing. And I believe I'm not the only one.
Bottom line - drive both and decide.
01-26-2010, 06:55 PM
#55
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Just a comment on the search issue. Unless you are extemely lucky or live in CA you are not at all likely to find the 993 you are seeking close to home. Enough people on here have expanded their horizons, used the help and resources of the people on this list and ended up with awesome cars. If you really want a 993 I'd definitely weigh in on doing that. If a 964 is it's equal in your mind and heart then go for that. There has been plenty said here to support the 964 choice.
Good luck with the hunt and enjoy it to the fullest (it's really part of the fun as you'll look back later and see). Tons of people on here love their cars but haven't stopped looking. You're probably having more fun hunting than most of us right now but don't realize it.
Good luck with the hunt and enjoy it to the fullest (it's really part of the fun as you'll look back later and see). Tons of people on here love their cars but haven't stopped looking. You're probably having more fun hunting than most of us right now but don't realize it.
01-26-2010, 08:44 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Half of us probably got a car half way across the country! I know I did. I searched for a very long time for my car. But, if you've been searching for a year and are beat on it, just get the 964. You can't go wrong. After a few years, maybe you can get a 993 then.
If it were me, I'd be more patient, expand my search to every single nook and cranny of the US, literally and wait it out. Just when you give up, you'll find your car. My last car was found 2731 mi from my house, and it was just a daily driver! I spent 4 months looking for a silver w/blk 01 740i BMW. Had to get it from Seattle WA and I live in Maryland.
Good luck.
If it were me, I'd be more patient, expand my search to every single nook and cranny of the US, literally and wait it out. Just when you give up, you'll find your car. My last car was found 2731 mi from my house, and it was just a daily driver! I spent 4 months looking for a silver w/blk 01 740i BMW. Had to get it from Seattle WA and I live in Maryland.
Good luck.
01-26-2010, 11:32 PM
#57
Certainly not an expert, but I have a 91 C2 Cab and LOVE it. When it's time to move on, I'd love to try a 993 coupe, but there's no way I could have one for close to the money I spent on my 964.
Based on the 993 prices I've seen, I wouldn't expect to get a decent one for $25K. There is a recent 91 cab that sold with 10K miles on it, full documentation, completely babied. I think he sold it for around 30K. That kind of 993 would be tons more.
My wife loves to drive my cab, I love to drive it, I autocross in it, the cool factor is certainly still there, and it's easy to work on (so far, knock on wood). No down side that I can see.
Based on the 993 prices I've seen, I wouldn't expect to get a decent one for $25K. There is a recent 91 cab that sold with 10K miles on it, full documentation, completely babied. I think he sold it for around 30K. That kind of 993 would be tons more.
My wife loves to drive my cab, I love to drive it, I autocross in it, the cool factor is certainly still there, and it's easy to work on (so far, knock on wood). No down side that I can see.
01-27-2010, 09:32 AM
#58
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01-28-2010, 09:10 AM
#60
Burning Brakes
I completely agree with this. Your budget is much too low for a 993 cab. If you did find one for $25k I can just about assure you that it will need 'stuff' within a year's time and it could be expensive 'stuff'. You would probably get upset and wish you never bought the car or wish you budgeted for that $34k 993 cab that was well maintained with lower mileage. I can't think of a better example of car than our 993 that fits the slogan, "you get what you pay for." There are always a few exceptions and outright 'steals' but don't expect it. A superbly maintained 964 would be a much better choice if your budget can not get higher. Aggravation and repairs are not the proper starting points for first time Porsche ownership. Good luck!