bobesser

The Car:
1996 993 C2. EuroM030 suspension (shocks, springs, sways). 17" Cup wheels with Toyo TR-1 summer tires. Factory LSD (probably shot)

The purpose: Daily driver. Competitive Autox. Occasional track days in near future with expectation that it will become the track car in a couple of years.

The budget: About 6-8k

The questions:
I hear a lot of good things about JIC Cross coilovers and they seem to be a great deal, you get four way adjustable coilovers (compression, rebound, preload, height), you get monoballs, and you get camber plates all for around $3k. I figure $3k for the coilovers and $1.5k for the bump steer kit. The question is, they seem to really screw up the spring rate ratio from front to rear. I read a post by Bill V. that the 7kg/10kg spring rate ratio is about 20% higher front bias than RS. This leads to *more* understeer than the already understeer happy original. Add in a functioning LSD which will increase understeer and you seem to have really screwed up the balance of the car.

What gives? What am I missing? Can you really tune that much understeer out with the adjustable sways? Would you want to?

Bob

DJF1

Bob, tuning out understeer has everything to do with setup and how you drive the car. Corner balance, camber, toe etc is one component, having an adjustable suspension helps, but most importantly the driving aspect is critical. Also wider fronts help. Although trailbraking for newbies is rarely the advise you get, indeed with a properly setup car and the use of trailbraking its the only way I have found to tame the beast. Properly done it loads nicely the front and you get tons of grip mid corner without drama. My cars are always setup on the understeer side ( less negative at the front) and it seems to work. I like the "security" of having a mildly understeering car on the limit on the fast 100+ mph corners. Driving the "classic way" "slow in fast out" it produces a ton of understeer and in reality the benefits of a proper LSD like the Porsche Motorsports are not realized.
In terms of AutoX it may be more difficult to completely get rid of understeer ( depending on the course layout) but left foot braking will help to balance the car and again as much trailbraking as possible. I would venture to say that practicing trailbraking on an AutoX course, its the best way to learn how the car reacts and learn the new signals that come from it which will be useful on the big tracks were the speeds are higher and can lead to something that noone wants... My 02.

Bill Verburg

you can use whatever springs you want, RS is 246/457, factory is more concerned w/ liability issues tha ultimate performance and so they always design in understeer.

I used 7/10(392/560) w/ RS sways for a while, but now have 8/12(448/672) still w/ RS sways, RS bushes all around and solid rear sides mounts, this setup is the nuts for some street but mostly track use.

Cup and lots of real harcore types use 600/800.

W/ adjustable shocks the high spring rates are still fine for street use, just turn down the shocks, I usually go up 3 or 4 in front and 1 or 2 in back for track days then back down for street.

same w/ the sways, you want to set the basic character w/ the springs and bushes then fine tune w/ wheels, tires and sways, I usually go up 1 hole front & back for track days then back down 1 for street(but also sometimes I just leave it up as it's not an issue).

Nollie

I think the suspension setup I have on my car was the single most beneficial thing I've done to the car so far (most beneficial overall has been drivers ed courses). I had Steve W. help me sort out the parts and Cantrell Motorsports to the alignment (including kinematic) and balancing. Post suspension I had veteran in our club comment my car is one of the most balanced he's driven. The car just goes where I tell it to, night and day from stock (of course I'm also running A6s).

Oddly enough I haven't had to do much dialing to get my car setup. Put the compression & rebound at their suggested starting point, put the sways where Steve W. suggested, and the rest hast been pure driving pleasure.

cgfen

If you ARE going to truly use the car for track duty in the future and you like to fiddle to optimize settings for differing conditions, then fully adjustable coilovers are an excellent idea. Here in So. Cal, most of the "serious" guys opt for JRZ product over JIC or Bilstein.

Far and away the biggest bang for the buck with my car was lowering the ride height, aggressive alignment (front and rear), and corner balance.
It turned an understeering AWD pig into a car i could drive with confidence at speed at the local CA tracks.

be safe

Craig

Paddy

Bob, you have a PM

Stealth 993

jic are horrible on the streets. Your suspension is ok for track work, i would invest in tires, RS spindles with tie rods, then a great alignment. Really if you are going to invest in a 'track" type setup, JRZ's, or Moton's are the way to go. If you hang out around the track, you will find used pairs that are freshly rebuilt.

H&R also makes some adjustable shocks, that are also aluminum, there about $3800 a set, plus they come with monoball mounts.

Bill Verburg

I'm just absolutely amazed whenever I see statements like that

Yes, JRZ & Moton are probably better at 2x the price they ought to be. Don't forget to add the price of the camber plates and upper monoballs( I did swap out the JIC front camber plates/monoballs for Modes, most probably won't need to , there' an instant $500 addded to the price). It also does little good w/o also doing a minimum of RS bushes, for that level full monoballs and no street is the more likely route.

yes, you do need the RS uprights and outer tie rod ends(at a minimum) and again I highly recommend solid rear side mounts, they are a major improvement.

Bill Verburg

It's much harder to turn an awd into a good track car, but it can be done.

I agree real lowering and an aggressive alignment(depending on tires) is a must

Stealth 993

I've been in a couple of Jic cars, a 993, a 993 TT & a 996. While on the track they were fast, on the streets, they just didn't work right. It's just my opinion, others might feel differently. I should also point out, we got quite a few rough streets, even our freeways have some big bumpy sections. Really our local track (Pacific Raceways) is bumpy, & usually you need a softer spring for it.

I should say, I'm also not a huge fan of JIC stuff, but it's better then some others out there.

Bill Verburg

I guess you are right there, It is all opinion.

MO? I've never had issue w/ street JIC except that I'm not thrilled about thier front camber plate design.

Stealth 993

I must also say, that none had suspension like yours, just the JIC stuff & stock everything else. New bushings, arms & spindles might change my mind.

MO, like Missouri? No, WA, about 80% of our streets suck. They just paves my main street 2 weeks ago, it was baby but smooth & made me happy. Now, they ripped it up in about 6 parts to lay new pipe (why before the pave job is anyone guess) now the smooth road is bumpy again, but brand new bumps.

Tom W

I'm with Bill on this one. Many find JIC's a nice solution for the question asked in the original post.

Once upon a time I had the Turtle as a street car (with JIC's) and was quite happy with it. I have PSS-9s on the 993 and am happy with them. For a mostly street car with some autox and some track, I think the JIC or PSS-10's are a nice compromise solution.

While the JIC-Cross comes with camber plates, they may not be necessary. I found the RS alignment specs a nice compromise for mostly street use and occasion track duty. My car could get there without the need for camber plates. The ride height is key here (lower height allows more negative camber).

For a beginner or intermediate track driver with a car that's mostly street duty, the JIC or PSS-10 suspension and RS alignment, coupled to RS adjustable sway bars is a heck of an upgrade for the price. If you really want to go wild, buy an extra set of cup II wheels and get some better tires for autox and/or track use. $5k total and all you need until you get a dedicated track car to satisfy your addiction.

Mark in Baltimore

John Haas (John H here on Rennlist) has been racing his white, G class 993 off and on for several years with JIC shocks. He does really well with them, too. With that kind of budget, part of me thinks that you should cut to the chase and go directly to Motons. They ride pretty well on the street, but I don't know if they are the right choice for a daily driver. Such is the dilemma with a dual purpose car that is a compromise for both areas, which is why I say go Moton.

Oh, get RS or TRG sways.

helmet155

There is good reports of KW Variant 3 on this site, is that not an option?