'97 Turbo S for $85,000 on eBay
04-21-2008, 06:02 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
If I knew I would have bought it and I am very serious
Off course need be real and no major accidents
from the pictures, I was wondering where is the fog light switch?
Off course need be real and no major accidents
from the pictures, I was wondering where is the fog light switch?
04-21-2008, 09:41 AM
#17
Burning Brakes
I cant belive the comments about this car,no good beacause the paint is too thick?
I cant stand the sales prevention officers who measure the paint on a 12yr old car and if its more than a few microns over the depth they "think" it should be suck air through their teeth knowldgeably and shake their heads saying" this has had some paint".If the paints been done properly that does not make it a bad car mines been painted and the depth and lustre is superior to std IMO everyone to their own but would suggest provenance and mech issues would be more of an issue for an inspec here.
The only reason I can see to crab the car is if its been clocked /any panels replaced,or not a real S.
For what its worth in the UK thats no miles mine has 81k on it there are plenty for sale in the uk with over the 100k.
I cant stand the sales prevention officers who measure the paint on a 12yr old car and if its more than a few microns over the depth they "think" it should be suck air through their teeth knowldgeably and shake their heads saying" this has had some paint".If the paints been done properly that does not make it a bad car mines been painted and the depth and lustre is superior to std IMO everyone to their own but would suggest provenance and mech issues would be more of an issue for an inspec here.
The only reason I can see to crab the car is if its been clocked /any panels replaced,or not a real S.
For what its worth in the UK thats no miles mine has 81k on it there are plenty for sale in the uk with over the 100k.
Furthermore, you are completely out of touch with the market if you think that a repaint, even if done properly, and fully documented (which was not the case here) does not significantly affect the value of a Turbo S. That is the market. Period. You may not care, but if you ever might sell it, it will impact the value.
The reason that people meter paint is so that they can find evidence of work that has been done that was not disclosed. If you do not think that is relevant, go offer this guy 100k for the car and try and flip it. Because, if this car were 100% clean, fully documented, never painted, you'd be able to sell it above 100k even with 45k miles. If you think that the market doesn't care about that, then have at it. See how that works out for you.
Every dealer does the same thing thing when they take a trade-in. Why? Because they'd be out of business if they bought repainted cars and paid prices as if they were perfect.
Furthermore, I never said one word about the car not being saleable with 45k miles. Do the miles matter? Yes. But so does the paint and history. If the car had 100k miles and had a record of being repainted because of rock chips, then fine. It may be a net positive then. But this car has 45k miles and looks to have been fully repainted without any record of it or admission on the part of the seller.
As to the mechanical issues, I did have a ppi done on this car, for not just mechanicals but also evidence of potential damage. But, realistically, you can rebuild an engine for 10k and not detract from its value. In fact, the market will pay a premium for that. But repainting a Turbo S will detract its value unless its value has already dropped significantly for some other reason. A 45k miles Turbo S in the 80k price range does take a hit for a full repaint. If it had either some explanation or if it were just a panel or even two, perhaps not, but the full car? With no explanation?
I stand by my statement that 85k is a fair price but not cheap for the car based on my knowledge. If I am wrong about the car's (unknown and undocumented) history, then 85k is great.
In the end, this is not a question of whether the car is crap or not. It is a question of what its value is, and what factors should impact and by how much.
04-21-2008, 09:56 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
By the way, in no way do I mean to impugn the sellers, either in 2005 or today. I never spoke with the current seller, and the seller in 2005 was a stand-up guy. As I recall, he got the car through an action or something, admitted that he knew nothing about it, took it out for a ppi for me, and let me out of the deal when I got the results. Of course, he ended up selling it for 4k more than he would have sold it to me, but still I have no complaints about him. I wouldn't have wanted it at 85 even if I knew I could sell it for 89. Too much of a hassle.
04-21-2008, 10:24 AM
#19
On any automobile, an all over repaint changes the value. The most valuable car is one that is totaly original. Check out the collector car aution results.
04-21-2008, 01:33 PM
#20
Instructor
Okay, so if the entire car has been repainted, and there is no record of it, and the current seller has no knowledge of it, how exactly do you know what happened? How do you know it was not clocked or that all of the panels were not replaced? If the paint meaures as original, then you are pretty sure about that answer.
Furthermore, you are completely out of touch with the market if you think that a repaint, even if done properly, and fully documented (which was not the case here) does not significantly affect the value of a Turbo S. That is the market. Period. You may not care, but if you ever might sell it, it will impact the value.
The reason that people meter paint is so that they can find evidence of work that has been done that was not disclosed. If you do not think that is relevant, go offer this guy 100k for the car and try and flip it. Because, if this car were 100% clean, fully documented, never painted, you'd be able to sell it above 100k even with 45k miles. If you think that the market doesn't care about that, then have at it. See how that works out for you.
Every dealer does the same thing thing when they take a trade-in. Why? Because they'd be out of business if they bought repainted cars and paid prices as if they were perfect.
Furthermore, I never said one word about the car not being saleable with 45k miles. Do the miles matter? Yes. But so does the paint and history. If the car had 100k miles and had a record of being repainted because of rock chips, then fine. It may be a net positive then. But this car has 45k miles and looks to have been fully repainted without any record of it or admission on the part of the seller.
As to the mechanical issues, I did have a ppi done on this car, for not just mechanicals but also evidence of potential damage. But, realistically, you can rebuild an engine for 10k and not detract from its value. In fact, the market will pay a premium for that. But repainting a Turbo S will detract its value unless its value has already dropped significantly for some other reason. A 45k miles Turbo S in the 80k price range does take a hit for a full repaint. If it had either some explanation or if it were just a panel or even two, perhaps not, but the full car? With no explanation?
I stand by my statement that 85k is a fair price but not cheap for the car based on my knowledge. If I am wrong about the car's (unknown and undocumented) history, then 85k is great.
In the end, this is not a question of whether the car is crap or not. It is a question of what its value is, and what factors should impact and by how much.
Furthermore, you are completely out of touch with the market if you think that a repaint, even if done properly, and fully documented (which was not the case here) does not significantly affect the value of a Turbo S. That is the market. Period. You may not care, but if you ever might sell it, it will impact the value.
The reason that people meter paint is so that they can find evidence of work that has been done that was not disclosed. If you do not think that is relevant, go offer this guy 100k for the car and try and flip it. Because, if this car were 100% clean, fully documented, never painted, you'd be able to sell it above 100k even with 45k miles. If you think that the market doesn't care about that, then have at it. See how that works out for you.
Every dealer does the same thing thing when they take a trade-in. Why? Because they'd be out of business if they bought repainted cars and paid prices as if they were perfect.
Furthermore, I never said one word about the car not being saleable with 45k miles. Do the miles matter? Yes. But so does the paint and history. If the car had 100k miles and had a record of being repainted because of rock chips, then fine. It may be a net positive then. But this car has 45k miles and looks to have been fully repainted without any record of it or admission on the part of the seller.
As to the mechanical issues, I did have a ppi done on this car, for not just mechanicals but also evidence of potential damage. But, realistically, you can rebuild an engine for 10k and not detract from its value. In fact, the market will pay a premium for that. But repainting a Turbo S will detract its value unless its value has already dropped significantly for some other reason. A 45k miles Turbo S in the 80k price range does take a hit for a full repaint. If it had either some explanation or if it were just a panel or even two, perhaps not, but the full car? With no explanation?
I stand by my statement that 85k is a fair price but not cheap for the car based on my knowledge. If I am wrong about the car's (unknown and undocumented) history, then 85k is great.
In the end, this is not a question of whether the car is crap or not. It is a question of what its value is, and what factors should impact and by how much.
The point I was trying to make is (probably badly) as a motor dealer myself is that car looked a bargain albeit compared to UK values.
However it is not always conclusive without any other tools or knowledge to be definitive about paint film thickness and give a view on authenticity with a view to std concours ect.
I did not say the car was crap? but imo it is not out the window beacause the paint is too thick ,if porsche told you so then thats fair BUT in my experiance(I could write a book) most of the experts are not experts on body/paint and mechanicals,if there were evidence of paint and poor repairs I would agree but have had several instances of newish porsches from opc with nearly 50% variance on paint film thickness.The parameters for excess paint are set by Porsche and vary,during manufacture many shells are checked and have another coat of paint in the factory the gauge isnt all seeing.I have my own bodyshop and was a sprayer myself to concours stds I would add for 20yrs.
some cars are even repaired by the opc from new due to small dents ,damage during preparation ect. and the new owner may well be oblivious to this.They dont call the car sub std and send it back to stuttgart!
Another factor again imo is to get the ppi done by someone who is familiar with the 911,not just one who knows "everything".
I just think as a dealer,and at other times as an enthusiast, the perfection we strive comes at a price,good luck looking for your car.
04-21-2008, 02:30 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
As I recall, the paint was over twice as thick as spec. I never saw the car in person, but the paint was described as without a chip.
My PPI was done by a 911 specialist shop, not a dealer, but I don't know that that was a good thing.
Also, to add a little color, I think this car was at a porsche dealer in 2005 right before it ended up being auctioned. I never spoke with the dealer, but it showed up on their web page for about 1 day without a price and then disappeared. From the guy who almost sold it to me, I got the sense that the dealer got it somehow (trade?) and decided to auction it rather than try to sell it. I take that as a negative, but it is inconclusive.
Whatever the case, TTSs are cheaper here, and, while not easy to get for under 100k, that is primarily due to the fact that most of the cars on the market have less than 20k miles. Cars that have come to the market with over 40k miles have not gotten over 110k (at least by much), even with decent histories. With 50k miles, it is like 100k. With 30k, it might be 125k, and at 20k miles, it might be 140k, and under 10k miles might be 160k. All of these prices assume pretty clean histories and records, and great condition for the miles.
My PPI was done by a 911 specialist shop, not a dealer, but I don't know that that was a good thing.
Also, to add a little color, I think this car was at a porsche dealer in 2005 right before it ended up being auctioned. I never spoke with the dealer, but it showed up on their web page for about 1 day without a price and then disappeared. From the guy who almost sold it to me, I got the sense that the dealer got it somehow (trade?) and decided to auction it rather than try to sell it. I take that as a negative, but it is inconclusive.
Whatever the case, TTSs are cheaper here, and, while not easy to get for under 100k, that is primarily due to the fact that most of the cars on the market have less than 20k miles. Cars that have come to the market with over 40k miles have not gotten over 110k (at least by much), even with decent histories. With 50k miles, it is like 100k. With 30k, it might be 125k, and at 20k miles, it might be 140k, and under 10k miles might be 160k. All of these prices assume pretty clean histories and records, and great condition for the miles.
04-21-2008, 02:34 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
04-23-2008, 11:44 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
10k mile car: drop from 160 to 120
20k mile car: drop from 140 to 110
30k mile car: drop from 125 to 100
40k mile car: drop from 110 to 95
50k mile car: drop from 100 to 90
The point, for me, would be that collectbility is lost, so miles will matter less, and value will be impacted a lot more on a low mile car.
I am not an expert on this, but do watch the market. In the end, prices can be all over the place, but 100k for the car you describe, if it has 30k miles and was done right, would be about the same deal as a car with 45k miles for $85k that was repainted without explanation. You are getting a lower mile car with a known and limited damage vs higher miles and complete uncertainty. Now, if the 45k mile car were not repainted, or repainted for rock chips, or was proven to not have been hit or had panels replaced, then 85k would be awesome and 100k for the other car only fair. Just my opinion.
04-24-2008, 12:32 PM
#25
Instructor
04-24-2008, 12:37 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
Gary,
I LOVE to drive my car (Rufus has 111,000 miles), but it actually doesn't get driven in the rain (we're in SoCal, don't forget), and its ususally under a car cover when parked, even in my garage. But, I admit to being whacky. A group of us are planning a 3000+ mile roadtrip to Texas and back next week. Shoot! I may need to put my wipers back on!
I LOVE to drive my car (Rufus has 111,000 miles), but it actually doesn't get driven in the rain (we're in SoCal, don't forget), and its ususally under a car cover when parked, even in my garage. But, I admit to being whacky. A group of us are planning a 3000+ mile roadtrip to Texas and back next week. Shoot! I may need to put my wipers back on!
04-24-2008, 01:08 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Almost any car at the right price is a good deal for someone. Plus, different cars with different histories need to be bought by different people with different intended uses.
Clearly, an $85k TTS with 45k miles is not going to be a collector car, but what does that say about its value? Nothing. Even a ford taurus is worth less if it has higher miles or has a spotty history.
If the buyer plans to drive the car a ton, track it, etc., then why should he care that it was repainted? If that is the case, then he is the right buyer. But is $85k the right price? Too high, too low? Hard to say, but I think fair.
Look, the guy who bought it 4 years ago apparently said that he was going to track it, etc., and didn't care about the details becuase he was going to drive the S*** out of it. Well, 4 years later, here it is, and he sells it, having put less than 1,000 miles on it in 4 years and taking a loss of at least a $4,000 plus the cost of ownership and opportunity cost of the money. Probably over $20,000 for 1000 miles.
I agree, if you buy this car, drive it a ton. Otherwise, if you plan to put 1000 miles on it over 4 years, better to buy a garage queen in my opinion. I am in the middle. I put some miles on my car (it has more than 30k miles), but it is as perfect as can be for the miles.
To say that the car is not a steal at 85k, but that other TTSs are worth 160k, is not a criticism of this car or its buyer. It is my opinion of the impact of history and miles on market value.
Clearly, an $85k TTS with 45k miles is not going to be a collector car, but what does that say about its value? Nothing. Even a ford taurus is worth less if it has higher miles or has a spotty history.
If the buyer plans to drive the car a ton, track it, etc., then why should he care that it was repainted? If that is the case, then he is the right buyer. But is $85k the right price? Too high, too low? Hard to say, but I think fair.
Look, the guy who bought it 4 years ago apparently said that he was going to track it, etc., and didn't care about the details becuase he was going to drive the S*** out of it. Well, 4 years later, here it is, and he sells it, having put less than 1,000 miles on it in 4 years and taking a loss of at least a $4,000 plus the cost of ownership and opportunity cost of the money. Probably over $20,000 for 1000 miles.
I agree, if you buy this car, drive it a ton. Otherwise, if you plan to put 1000 miles on it over 4 years, better to buy a garage queen in my opinion. I am in the middle. I put some miles on my car (it has more than 30k miles), but it is as perfect as can be for the miles.
To say that the car is not a steal at 85k, but that other TTSs are worth 160k, is not a criticism of this car or its buyer. It is my opinion of the impact of history and miles on market value.
04-24-2008, 03:20 PM
#28
Instructor
Gary,
I LOVE to drive my car (Rufus has 111,000 miles), but it actually doesn't get driven in the rain (we're in SoCal, don't forget), and its ususally under a car cover when parked, even in my garage. But, I admit to being whacky. A group of us are planning a 3000+ mile roadtrip to Texas and back next week. Shoot! I may need to put my wipers back on!
I LOVE to drive my car (Rufus has 111,000 miles), but it actually doesn't get driven in the rain (we're in SoCal, don't forget), and its ususally under a car cover when parked, even in my garage. But, I admit to being whacky. A group of us are planning a 3000+ mile roadtrip to Texas and back next week. Shoot! I may need to put my wipers back on!
04-24-2008, 03:28 PM
#29
Instructor
Almost any car at the right price is a good deal for someone. Plus, different cars with different histories need to be bought by different people with different intended uses.
Clearly, an $85k TTS with 45k miles is not going to be a collector car, but what does that say about its value? Nothing. Even a ford taurus is worth less if it has higher miles or has a spotty history.
If the buyer plans to drive the car a ton, track it, etc., then why should he care that it was repainted? If that is the case, then he is the right buyer. But is $85k the right price? Too high, too low? Hard to say, but I think fair.
Look, the guy who bought it 4 years ago apparently said that he was going to track it, etc., and didn't care about the details becuase he was going to drive the S*** out of it. Well, 4 years later, here it is, and he sells it, having put less than 1,000 miles on it in 4 years and taking a loss of at least a $4,000 plus the cost of ownership and opportunity cost of the money. Probably over $20,000 for 1000 miles.
I agree, if you buy this car, drive it a ton. Otherwise, if you plan to put 1000 miles on it over 4 years, better to buy a garage queen in my opinion. I am in the middle. I put some miles on my car (it has more than 30k miles), but it is as perfect as can be for the miles.
To say that the car is not a steal at 85k, but that other TTSs are worth 160k, is not a criticism of this car or its buyer. It is my opinion of the impact of history and miles on market value.
Clearly, an $85k TTS with 45k miles is not going to be a collector car, but what does that say about its value? Nothing. Even a ford taurus is worth less if it has higher miles or has a spotty history.
If the buyer plans to drive the car a ton, track it, etc., then why should he care that it was repainted? If that is the case, then he is the right buyer. But is $85k the right price? Too high, too low? Hard to say, but I think fair.
Look, the guy who bought it 4 years ago apparently said that he was going to track it, etc., and didn't care about the details becuase he was going to drive the S*** out of it. Well, 4 years later, here it is, and he sells it, having put less than 1,000 miles on it in 4 years and taking a loss of at least a $4,000 plus the cost of ownership and opportunity cost of the money. Probably over $20,000 for 1000 miles.
I agree, if you buy this car, drive it a ton. Otherwise, if you plan to put 1000 miles on it over 4 years, better to buy a garage queen in my opinion. I am in the middle. I put some miles on my car (it has more than 30k miles), but it is as perfect as can be for the miles.
To say that the car is not a steal at 85k, but that other TTSs are worth 160k, is not a criticism of this car or its buyer. It is my opinion of the impact of history and miles on market value.
I applied for the log book and contacted the owners traced the history ect.
These are one of the few cars that when youve had a few (7) you get a feel for miles and whether the old girl has been cherished or thrashed,I spent two hours looking round it checked it out and brought it,its been great bar the oil feed dramas,hope to keep it but who knows,thanks for your replies by the way.
