Starter replacement on a C4S ....
07-12-2007, 08:38 PM
#1
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Starter replacement on a C4S ....
.... was about the most @#*&% miserable job I've done on any type of Porsche - and there were several contenders and honourable mentions waiting in the wings for that prize.
In the year that this C4S has been around, the starter would activate but with increasing frequency, fail to engage the ring gear when hot ( cold operation was perfect). After two to three embarasingly noisy attempts, the car would finally start; however, situations like this never get better on their own .... so a DIY starter replacement was in the books. These, BTW, are the symptoms of a failing spring and clutch assembly in the drive mechanism on the nose of the starter.
The archives have several well written accounts of successful DIY replacements .... on a C2 chassis: the AWD chassis with the G64 trans and torque tube restrict the degree by which the engine and trans can be lowered, so there was no way I could access the 'hidden' nut from over the top left side. Restricted to do everything from the bottom right, drop the inner CV joint ... and the entire job can be done in ~one hour - barring exceptions noted below
There are two issues worthy of mention that will absolutely ruin your day .... and add several hours to that goal:
#1 ... the topmost hidden 10mm allan nut is seized .... or was installed by a gorilla. After all conventional tooling combinations failed to break it loose, I soaked a cotton ball in Kroil ( penetrant), and guided it over the starter to squeeze the magic elixir onto the nut as a marinade. If anyone figures out how to spray this nut, please let me know!
Then, the 1/2" drive gear was assembled - 10mm allan socket, 5" extension , impact swivel, 24" extension and 18" ratchet. This put the ratchet head at the nose of the trans. With a good vein popping bend in the handle, there was a huge 'crack' and everything went limp - the nut came free.
#2 .... this is where the starter should dive into your hands, but doesn't because it's fr&%@#n' well seized into the bellhousing by a growth of white aluminium oxide. With a piece of 2x4 and a BFH, beat the starter body upwards until a 1/8" gap appears on the lower stud: as 200 lbs of dead weight will not begin to draw it downwards, close 1/2 the opened gap with the allan nut .... back off the nut and repeat this cycle 5x .... the starter will yield.
With everything cleaned up, reassembly was a breeze. To do it again without the two issues, 1 hour is reasonable .... but Porsches are rarely reasonable.
The replacement starter works like a champ!
In the year that this C4S has been around, the starter would activate but with increasing frequency, fail to engage the ring gear when hot ( cold operation was perfect). After two to three embarasingly noisy attempts, the car would finally start; however, situations like this never get better on their own .... so a DIY starter replacement was in the books. These, BTW, are the symptoms of a failing spring and clutch assembly in the drive mechanism on the nose of the starter.
The archives have several well written accounts of successful DIY replacements .... on a C2 chassis: the AWD chassis with the G64 trans and torque tube restrict the degree by which the engine and trans can be lowered, so there was no way I could access the 'hidden' nut from over the top left side. Restricted to do everything from the bottom right, drop the inner CV joint ... and the entire job can be done in ~one hour - barring exceptions noted below
There are two issues worthy of mention that will absolutely ruin your day .... and add several hours to that goal:
#1 ... the topmost hidden 10mm allan nut is seized .... or was installed by a gorilla. After all conventional tooling combinations failed to break it loose, I soaked a cotton ball in Kroil ( penetrant), and guided it over the starter to squeeze the magic elixir onto the nut as a marinade. If anyone figures out how to spray this nut, please let me know!
Then, the 1/2" drive gear was assembled - 10mm allan socket, 5" extension , impact swivel, 24" extension and 18" ratchet. This put the ratchet head at the nose of the trans. With a good vein popping bend in the handle, there was a huge 'crack' and everything went limp - the nut came free.#2 .... this is where the starter should dive into your hands, but doesn't because it's fr&%@#n' well seized into the bellhousing by a growth of white aluminium oxide. With a piece of 2x4 and a BFH, beat the starter body upwards until a 1/8" gap appears on the lower stud: as 200 lbs of dead weight will not begin to draw it downwards, close 1/2 the opened gap with the allan nut .... back off the nut and repeat this cycle 5x .... the starter will yield.
With everything cleaned up, reassembly was a breeze. To do it again without the two issues, 1 hour is reasonable .... but Porsches are rarely reasonable.
The replacement starter works like a champ!
07-12-2007, 11:39 PM
#2
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PORSCHE SHOULD PUT RUBBER PLUGS TO ACESS ALLEN BOLT OVER BELL HOUSING AREA
HI
I experience the same problem when I owned... 1987 PORSCHE 928 S4
with TORQUE TUBE...had to replace starter also...
I did not want to do what u did...so this is how I came up with this idea
15 years ago...i did this with all 7....911 over the years...my little secret
funny...i never told anybody about this ...until.....NOW
I cut a 1.5" neat nice circle...right over the upper ALLEN bolt head
to have easy acess to that allen head.....& I plug it back with a rubber plug
in case I have to go back there later....for any reason
made it simple for my self......
CROME...
I experience the same problem when I owned... 1987 PORSCHE 928 S4
with TORQUE TUBE...had to replace starter also...
I did not want to do what u did...so this is how I came up with this idea
15 years ago...i did this with all 7....911 over the years...my little secret
funny...i never told anybody about this ...until.....NOW
I cut a 1.5" neat nice circle...right over the upper ALLEN bolt head
to have easy acess to that allen head.....& I plug it back with a rubber plug
in case I have to go back there later....for any reason
made it simple for my self......
CROME...
07-13-2007, 12:51 AM
#3
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Originally Posted by Garth S
.... was about the most @#*&% miserable job I've done on any type of Porsche - and there were several contenders and honourable mentions waiting in the wings for that prize.
In the year that this C4S has been around, the starter would activate but with increasing frequency, fail to engage the ring gear when hot ( cold operation was perfect). After two to three embarasingly noisy attempts, the car would finally start; however, situations like this never get better on their own .... so a DIY starter replacement was in the books. These, BTW, are the symptoms of a failing spring and clutch assembly in the drive mechanism on the nose of the starter.
The archives have several well written accounts of successful DIY replacements .... on a C2 chassis: the AWD chassis with the G64 trans and torque tube restrict the degree by which the engine and trans can be lowered, so there was no way I could access the 'hidden' nut from over the top left side. Restricted to do everything from the bottom right, drop the inner CV joint ... and the entire job can be done in ~one hour - barring exceptions noted below
There are two issues worthy of mention that will absolutely ruin your day .... and add several hours to that goal:
#1 ... the topmost hidden 10mm allan nut is seized .... or was installed by a gorilla. After all conventional tooling combinations failed to break it loose, I soaked a cotton ball in Kroil ( penetrant), and guided it over the starter to squeeze the magic elixir onto the nut as a marinade. If anyone figures out how to spray this nut, please let me know! Then, the 1/2" drive gear was assembled - 10mm allan socket, 5" extension , impact swivel, 24" extension and 18" ratchet. This put the ratchet head at the nose of the trans. With a good vein popping bend in the handle, there was a huge 'crack' and everything went limp - the nut came free.
#2 .... this is where the starter should dive into your hands, but doesn't because it's fr&%@#n' well seized into the bellhousing by a growth of white aluminium oxide. With a piece of 2x4 and a BFH, beat the starter body upwards until a 1/8" gap appears on the lower stud: as 200 lbs of dead weight will not begin to draw it downwards, close 1/2 the opened gap with the allan nut .... back off the nut and repeat this cycle 5x .... the starter will yield.
With everything cleaned up, reassembly was a breeze. To do it again without the two issues, 1 hour is reasonable .... but Porsches are rarely reasonable.
The replacement starter works like a champ!
In the year that this C4S has been around, the starter would activate but with increasing frequency, fail to engage the ring gear when hot ( cold operation was perfect). After two to three embarasingly noisy attempts, the car would finally start; however, situations like this never get better on their own .... so a DIY starter replacement was in the books. These, BTW, are the symptoms of a failing spring and clutch assembly in the drive mechanism on the nose of the starter.
The archives have several well written accounts of successful DIY replacements .... on a C2 chassis: the AWD chassis with the G64 trans and torque tube restrict the degree by which the engine and trans can be lowered, so there was no way I could access the 'hidden' nut from over the top left side. Restricted to do everything from the bottom right, drop the inner CV joint ... and the entire job can be done in ~one hour - barring exceptions noted below
There are two issues worthy of mention that will absolutely ruin your day .... and add several hours to that goal:
#1 ... the topmost hidden 10mm allan nut is seized .... or was installed by a gorilla. After all conventional tooling combinations failed to break it loose, I soaked a cotton ball in Kroil ( penetrant), and guided it over the starter to squeeze the magic elixir onto the nut as a marinade. If anyone figures out how to spray this nut, please let me know!
Then, the 1/2" drive gear was assembled - 10mm allan socket, 5" extension , impact swivel, 24" extension and 18" ratchet. This put the ratchet head at the nose of the trans. With a good vein popping bend in the handle, there was a huge 'crack' and everything went limp - the nut came free.#2 .... this is where the starter should dive into your hands, but doesn't because it's fr&%@#n' well seized into the bellhousing by a growth of white aluminium oxide. With a piece of 2x4 and a BFH, beat the starter body upwards until a 1/8" gap appears on the lower stud: as 200 lbs of dead weight will not begin to draw it downwards, close 1/2 the opened gap with the allan nut .... back off the nut and repeat this cycle 5x .... the starter will yield.
With everything cleaned up, reassembly was a breeze. To do it again without the two issues, 1 hour is reasonable .... but Porsches are rarely reasonable.
The replacement starter works like a champ!
07-13-2007, 03:17 AM
#4
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Yup, me too. The godamn top nut is not only a bear to get to, the nut bonds to the stud and needs a breaker bar and lots of grunt to get it loose. Funny how the bottom one is always looser than the top one.
But I think the starter stuck in the bell housing is the worse. Its too precise ; the starter is tight tight tight and with water/time the oxide acts as an adhesive and glues the starter in. I have to pry/bang/twist over a long time to get it out....I do not look forward if someone asks me to change a starter since I know how tough it can be.
Good job on getting it changed out!!
Cheers,
Mike
But I think the starter stuck in the bell housing is the worse. Its too precise ; the starter is tight tight tight and with water/time the oxide acts as an adhesive and glues the starter in. I have to pry/bang/twist over a long time to get it out....I do not look forward if someone asks me to change a starter since I know how tough it can be.
Good job on getting it changed out!!
Cheers,
Mike
07-13-2007, 11:01 AM
#5
I really love reading the insights to the pioneer DIYers. When it's my turn, I know now, that I'll just have to soak the living day-lights out of those bolts and bell housing circumference with a good rust/penetrate solvent.
Thanks for your experiences,
Ken
Thanks for your experiences,
Ken
07-13-2007, 12:13 PM
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I wrestled with it for hours, until i found an extension piece for the allen bit that together with the bit is the exact same length as the starter motor, meaning I could insert the ratchet on the starter side. No need for UJ's and all that and reaching over the gearbox and so on.
I didn't lower the engine.
It was kinda easy after that. It was on a C2, but is it different on a C4 if you don't have to lower the engine ?
Oh yes, takeout the top one first, you don't need the added stress on the top bolt if you release the bottom one first.
I never got the bush out though. I'll do that first time the enginge comes out.
Peter R.
I didn't lower the engine.
It was kinda easy after that. It was on a C2, but is it different on a C4 if you don't have to lower the engine ?
Oh yes, takeout the top one first, you don't need the added stress on the top bolt if you release the bottom one first.
I never got the bush out though. I'll do that first time the enginge comes out.
Peter R.
07-13-2007, 03:52 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
I failed.. I just couldn't get the top bolt even to move and ended up taking it to the shop.. I felt lame, but after all the exasperation, I thought that paying my wrench 2 hours labor seemed okay in this instance..
Coleman-
Coleman-
